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Featured Understanding redemption

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Van, Feb 21, 2014.

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  1. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    And how, precisely, does that equate to "salvation"?
     
  2. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Jesus chose them, "elected" them, to be disciples. They we not individually chosen for salvation. Thomas did not really believe Jesus was truly resurrected until he touched the wound marks. As we learn from just about any salvation verse in the Bible, a person must believe in Jesus' resurrection to be saved. Are you saying Thomas was saved by individual election even though he didn't believe in Jesus' resurrection?
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Of course not!! I have presented to you what I believe is the biblical view of election. Recall God crediting a person's faith as righteousness, then setting them apart in Christ.

    The issue I had with the "nailed it" post of TND, was that those chosen to be disciples were chosen in part because they were looking for the Messiah. Thus the election to becoming one of the 12 was conditional and individual.
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    One more thing about the salvation of the Apostles, none of them were saved by the blood of Jesus until after Jesus died on the cross. But I think they had been set apart by God to be saved, just as the OT saints who were taken to Abraham's bosom. This observation echo's another correct insight provided by TND. See post #18.

    Thomas did not have complete faith in Christ before the crucification, but God had chosen him for a purpose (a disciple of Christ) and God partially made sure that purpose would be fulfilled by providing Thomas with the revelations needed to convince him. Ditto for Paul.
     
    #24 Van, Feb 22, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 22, 2014
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    There are many verses on this when you have a good understanding of the scripture.
     
  6. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    I have an excellent understanding of Scripture, your arrogant assumption aside. There are no such verses. The only way such "understanding" exists is through a twisting of those Scriptures to meet a Calvinistic need to be right.
     
  7. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    [unnecessary attack]
     
    #27 Rippon, Feb 23, 2014
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  8. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    Post reported................
     
  9. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Let's see Icon, you or another Calvinist post something that attempts to disprove what I've said, as opposed to simply labeling the messenger.
     
  10. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    The above is not labeling the messenger?! Come on TND. Your inconsistency is peeking through.
     
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Failing to disprove using any biblical support, that adoption as presented by Paul refers to our bodily redemption at Christ's second coming, the Calvinists now are trying to get the thread closed by trading insults.

    Redemption from our mortal and corrupt body is our adoption that we eagerly await.
     
  12. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Simple fact: I've posted support for my position. You haven't. Icon hasn't. No Calvinist has. That's all I'm saying. If I labeled anyone, it is as a disingenuous poster, not a true defender of a viewpoint.
     
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You have not shown any scriptural truth to respond to.You have offered nothing but your ideas. Where was this posting that states your position...perhaps I missed it. Clearly you totally miss the truth of Romans 9.

    Paul uses God's choice among nations as an illustration that Paul then uses to show individual election.The is no need to repeat the Jer. passage speaking about edomites.....that had that already...paul is contrasting and showing that the elect remnant and gentiles now are in view.
     
  14. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    IMHO Redemption was on the books before the foundation of the world. Redemption would come through the shedding of blood, wherein would lie life.

    It would have to come by one who would be without sin.

    What to be redeemed would be what is subject to corruption resulting in death.

    Thereby for redemption to already be on the books before the foundation of the world, death and corruption would also have to be a concept before the foundation of the world.

    Satan, the devil from his beginning was a liar and murder. From the beginning he had the power of death, Sin. From the beginning he exercised the works of Satan.

    To destroy corruption and death which already existed from the creation of the heavens and the earth and sinful Satan being cast to the earth, the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the deep and said let there be light. On the sixth day he created man in his own image, made the help meet by thking the woman from the man, for the very purpose of bring his only begotten Son into the world subject to corruption and death, to give his life for the redemption of the creation.

    A couple of verses.

    He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8
    Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Hebrews 2:14

    The covenant of God, made before the foundation of the world, was he would send a Son into the world subject to corruption and death, who by being obedient unto death would remain sinless thereby giving his life as a ransom. For this Son, God made the promise, of the hope of eternal life. Not life subject to corruption and death but life as the Father has, the Father would give to the Son to life in himself. See John 5:29

    That life could then be imputed to others by which the whole of creation would benefit. See Romans 8.

    There is a new creation of everything being made in the resurrected Son of God, Jesus the Christ who also was the son of man, for the new creation of man in the image of that Son.

    What is man?
     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Notice Romans 8:23 can be cited and cited and cited, you no Calvinist knows of its existence. Here is a typical response, "you have not shown any scripture truth...." But there is Romans 8:23, telling anyone who reads it we are eagerly awaiting our adoption, thus no one has been adopted, which refers to our bodily redemption at Christ's second coming.

    So as the Calvinists drone on and on, from person incredulity, without a shed of evidence from scripture, we wait and wait and wait. Rick's cafe anyone?
     
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The Holy Spirit of Promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's possession, the the praise of His glory. We who have been born anew have been delivered from the penalty of sin, and are being delivered from the power of sin over our thoughts and actions, will be delivered through adoption from the presence of sin, when we are raised in glorified bodies at Christ's second coming.
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    So when paul calls us right now sons of the adoption from the Holy spirit, that NOW we are rightly called the children of God, which John also agrees with, are wrong and DR Van is right?
     
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Folks, Calvinism makes up statements or borrows corrupted text to claim scripture says the opposite of what it says. No one has been adopted, we were born anew. At Christ's second coming, we will be redeemed, resurrected in glorified bodies.

    The Holy Spirit of Promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's possession, the the praise of His glory. We who have been born anew have been delivered from the penalty of sin, and are being delivered from the power of sin over our thoughts and actions, will be delivered through adoption from the presence of sin, when we are raised in glorified bodies at Christ's second coming.

    This is basis Christianity 101 and Calvinism denies it.
     
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    You have failed to support your premise though from the scriptures, as its clear that we all right now have the Spriit of adoption, allowing us to callGod "Daddy!"
    the greek supports instead our view of being adopted now, but still yet awaiting to receive the fullness of that adoption when glorified!
     
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    ROFLOL, I have failed to support my premise.

    Has anyone denied we have the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of Adoption, the Holy Spirit? Nope. So you just posted yet another falsehood, another fiction, another obfuscation of the truth.

    Here is how it works, for those actually interested in truth:

    When God puts us spiritually in Christ, we become spiritual children of God. Anyone who is in Christ is a new creation. Then, after God puts us spiritually in Christ, God seals us in Christ with the Holy Spirit. Thus anyone with the Holy Spirit is indeed a child of God, not through adoption, but through being born from God. The Greek supports my view and you know it!!!!

    You can rewrite Romans 8:23 if you want, with your man-made scripture, but it does not read waiting eagerly for our [fullness of] adoption. You are not a prophet, you are not inspired, why do you defile the precious word of God, making it to no effect?

    The Holy Spirit of Promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's possession, the the praise of His glory. We who have been born anew have been delivered from the penalty of sin, and are being delivered from the power of sin over our thoughts and actions, will be delivered through adoption from the presence of sin, when we are raised in glorified bodies at Christ's second coming.

    No one needs to be adopted into the family they are born into! Calvinism is nonsense.

    This is basic Christianity 101 and Calvinism denies it.
     
    #40 Van, Feb 28, 2014
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