Featured Is Much of Modern Arminianism/Non cal Under Finnet theology?

Jordan, you are aware that John Gill is a Calvinist aren't you? And not just a moderate Calvinist, some consider him a hyper-Calvinist.

You listen to Gill and you will get seriously messed up on doctrine. He interprets all scripture to agree with Calvinism, and Calvinism MUST believe in Original Sin. Without Original Sin Calvinism would collapse like a house of cards.

Jordan, you have to be consistent when reading Romans 5. Paul is using a form of parallelism, you have to treat both halves of each verse equally.

If Romans 5:19 is teaching that all men are unconditionally made sinners by Adam's one sin, then the other half of the verse MUST teach that all men are unconditionally made righteous by Christ's one obedience. That would be Universalism.

Please pay attention to the word "unconditionally" Jordan, that is of utmost importance to understand Romans 5. If Adam's sin is applied to all men without condition, then so must Christ's righteousness. This is the parallel form of argument Paul is using that you MUST follow to interpret this scripture properly.

In fact, this is the very verse that all Univeralists use as a proof text for their view. And truth be told, if we are unconditionally made sinners by Adam's sin, then they are 100% correct.

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/univ3.html

No, we are conditionally made sinners when we sin as Adam sinned, and we are conditionally made righteous when we believe as Jesus believed.

Paul is simply explaining that Jesus is a type of Adam. As Adam brought the judgment of being judged "a sinner" upon us, and the condemnation for that judgment which is death, Jesus brought a judgment of being "righteous" upon us and the gift of eternal life through his faith and obedience in trusting his Father to raise him from the dead.

Romans 5 is not teaching Original Sin, verse 14 proves that;

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Romans 5:14 cannot be teaching Original Sin for two reasons;

#1 Paul mentions men from Adam to Moses only. If he were teaching Original Sin, then this death would have extended to ALL MEN.

#2 Paul very specifically says these men from Adam to Moses HAD NOT sinned after the similitude or likeness of Adam's sin. They were not in Adam's loins in the garden eating the forbidden fruit with him as Augustine falsely taught.

So, be careful who you listen to Jordan. There are a lot of Calvinists out there, in fact, there is a bit of Calvinist in your pastor who called me a "Pelagian", that is a term famous among Calvinsts. Very few non-Cals ever use this term. Pay attention.

 

No Winman, those who are in Adam are unconditionally made sinners, and those in Christ are unconditionally made righteous in Christ.

a universalist cannot use this verse because not all men are in Christ.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many(all in adam) were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many(all in Christ) be made righteous.

 

Jordan, you are quite mixed up. There is no such thing as a person who is unconditionally "in Christ". You must BELIEVE to be placed in Christ.

Believing is not a work Jordan, but it is an absolute condition of salvation. If you do not believe on Jesus, God will not save you.

 

I never said that.

I said those in Christ are unconditionally made righteous, as in all in Christ are going to made unconditionally righteous, they are made righteous no matter what because they are in Christ. I never said anyone was unconditionally put into Christ, two very big different statements!


Being in Christ has unconditional results, such as eternal life, sonship,etc.

Paul is merely stating that all who are in Adam will unconditionally die, all who are in Adam will die in their sins, while all who are in Christ will be unconditionally alive.

Would you not agree that once a person is in Christ, then they now have unconditional life, or are you one of those who believes one can lose eternal life once they have it?

 

But that is the problem with your interpretation Jordan. You believe that Romans 5:19 is teaching that men are born sinners because of Adam, not because of anything they have done, but you agree a man MUST believe to be placed in Christ. That violates Paul's form of parallelism in this chapter. What applies to one side of each verse MUST apply to the other. Look at the words used;

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Paul is using a form of parallelism here. What he says about the first phrase likewise applies to the second, but to an opposite effect.

If ALL MEN are unconditionally made sinners by Adam, then ALL MEN must unconditionally be made righteous by Jesus. We KNOW this is not true, for the scriptures tell us many men will perish and go to hell.

However, the opposite works perfectly. If ALL MEN are conditionally made sinners when they sin as Adam did, then ALL MEN who conditionally believe as Jesus did will be made righteous. Perfect. Agrees with all scripture 100%.

Think about that for a few minutes Jordan and you will see what I am saying.

There is nothing unconditional about it, you must BELIEVE to receive eternal life Jordan. Salvation is not unconditional whatsoever.

False. We do not unconditionally spiritually die, we die because "all have sinned" in verse 12;

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

This verse does not say Adam's sin passed on all men, it says DEATH passed on all men, FOR THAT ALL HAVE SINNED. Men die spiritually because they have conditionally sinned.

Augustine used a flawed Latin text (he did not read Greek well) that misinterpreted Romans 5:12 to say, "in whom all sinned" which he ASSUMED meant Adam. This translation was error. Even Greek scholars who agree with Augustine say this Latin text was wrong, and that the Greek teaches that all men die "because that" or "for that all have sinned" as our KJB says. The Greek clearly teaches that all men die for their own personal sin.

This is historical fact Jordan that you can look up online in many places. I suggest you do a little study on this. You will find out I am telling you the absolute truth.

Here is what Dr. J.W. MacGorman, a professor of Greek and the New Testament at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary for over 56 years said of Romans 5:12-21

http://peterlumpkins.typepad.com/pe...nevitably-leading-to-heresy-if-not-worse.html

Note that last statement by Dr. MacGorman. For the first three chapters of Romans, Paul repeatedly proves that all men, Jews and Gentiles are sinners because they have all sinned and come short of the glory of God. Paul does not mention Adam even once in these chapters.

In fact, Paul only mentions Adam twice in the whole book of Romans, in chapter 5 verse 14. In verse 14, Paul says men from Adam to Moses HAD NOT sinned in the similitude of Adam. They did not sin in Adam's loins in the garden as Augustine imagined. Augustine went completely off the tracks in Romans 5.