Better yet when did Christ DIE ?

Patience, Mel. I'll get there. I, as I've before said, have other irons in the fire, at the moment, but will attempt to answer when I get to it. I am still on my string.

Thanks. In His grace,
Ed

 

Sorry, computer acting up. double post.
Ed

 

Now we get to the day. Scripture uses at least four phrases to describe this time. Let me preface by saying that the gospel writers, I believe, all had a 'target audience', if I may use those words, as they wrote of and presented "the Branch".
1. Matthew wrote for and to the Jews, presenting Jesus, the Sovereign, the King of the Jews, 'the branch of David' (Isa. 11:1; Jer. 23:5; 33:11, and his 'language' is basically consistent with this.

2. Mark wrote for and to the Romans, presenting Jesus, the servant, "My servant, the branch" (Ps. 80:15; Zech. 3:8), and his language is likewise basically consistent.

3. Luke wrote to and for the Greeks, presenting Jesus as the perfect Son, 'the Son of man', and the perfection in "the man, whose name is The Branch (Ps. 80:15; Prov. 11:28; Zech. 6:12), and ditto on the language.

4. John wrote to and for all the world and the church, presenting Jesus as the Savior of the world, and the eternal Son of God, "the BRANCH of the LORD" (Isa. 4:2; ), and given his wider aim, here, 'all language' is consistent.

(Thanks to the late Dr. W. Graham Scroggie, for the genesis of this small outline.)

Matthew records the words of Jesus in Matt. 12:39-40 (All Scriptures from the NKJV unless otherwise noted. This is not a 'putdown' on any other version, but the translation I normally use, for myself, so when I look up a passage, this is where I read and copy it from. )

The Lord does not say 'the grave', here, where his body would be entombed, which could haver happened virtually at sundown, but the dismissal of his spirit (Luke 23:46) had happened around mid-afternoon, some four hours earlier. By whatever time we assume, we know that the Lord was resurrected by the time, "it began to dawn toward morning", as the sun started to began to lighten the day, but "early, while it was yet dark" (John 20:1), "very early, in the morning" (Lk. 24:1), at the "rising of the sun" {Mk.16:1 [seemingly an idiom to refer to this general time, (and understood by all, especially those in the Roman world) and correctly rendered as such, by the KJV, and YLT, with a couple of others, here, and incorrectly rendered by the NKJV, and ESV as well as many others]}.

It seems logical, to me, that the second earthquake, (Matt. 27:51-54, 28:2) was caused by the angel rolling away the stone, or was simultaneous with it, at least. This is not necessarily when the Lord was raised, however, for the stone was "rolled away", not to "let our Lord out" ("He is not here, for He is risen, as He said!") but to let us in.

*Three nights* before the day began on Sunday, marked the end of this time period. This is consistent with the Jewish view, of the part is as the whole, which has been postulated by others. Interestingly Firstfruits, (16 Nisan) a Sabbath, was not celebrated, with the wave sheaf offered, when it fell on the regular weekly Sabbath, but on the morrow, after the Sabbath. See Lev. 23. That this is consistent is also seen, in Matthew 28:1 where the proper rendering is "In (or at)the end of the Sabbaths, as the first day began to dawn, ..." or as the Greek has, " 1 οψε δε σαββατων τη επιφωσκουση εις μιαν σαββατων,..." (TR 1894; WHNU). The plural tells us there was more than one. How many more we are not here told, but I obviously believe it was one more. The Lamb was taken, and publically presented, i.e. our Lord rode into Jerusalem on 10 Nisan, i.e. 'Palm Sunday', where he was indeed examined and found without spot or blemish, and slain "between the evenings", which would equal Thursday by our recknoing of time, on 14 Nisan on 'Passover' or 'Preparation', at around 3 PM. This corresponds to "the first day of day one, and he went to Sheol to preach to the spirits in prison, and get His captivity, and bring them (and Paradise) with Him to bring to the Father. His body was lain in the tomb, It was there on 15 Nisan, unleavened Bread, "an high day", Friday, (night one; day two), and "firstfruits", (night two; day three) 16 Nisan, Saturday, which was the regular weekly Sabbath, as well. When the two Sabbaths were passed, or Lord arose sometime prior to about 4 AM, still (during the night, night three) as it would be starting to be light around then. He stopped of, so to speak, assumed His resurrection body, therefore 'rising from the grave', waited and spoke to Mary, before continuing on to the Father to present the wave offering of Firstfruits, the promise of more to come. We are that "more to come". He returns later that day, speaks to the disciples, and as even nears and passes, meets the two disciples on the Emmaus road, late that Sunday afternoon. They also tell Jesus that "this is the third day since all these things." That expression, to me is the 'clincher." A Wednesday crucifixion is too early; a Friday crucifixion is too late.

Not only did this time between the offering and the resurrection have to fot the "three days and three nights', it had to also be "the third day", in three days", "after three days", and "on the third day", at least, and I'm pulling these phrases off the top of my head. And they all have to refer to and fit this Biblical phenomena. And they do, making the only possible day Thursday, by our reckoning.

One final thing. Six days before Passover, Jesus came to Bethany, where He and the disciples, probably stayed with Mary, Martha, and Lazerus. Had He entered Jerusalem from bethany on a Saturday, were that being 10 Nisan, and the Passover therefore taking place on 14 Nisan, a Wednesday, had Passover been on Wednesday, he would have broken the Mosaic Law, by His entry, regarding the "Sabbath day's journey", for Bethany was about two to three times as far from Jerusalem as the Mount of Olives, a Sabbath day's journey, away. It's Thursday, pure and simple.
In His grace,
Ed

[ April 12, 2006, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: EdSutton ]

 

Ed,

You cite only yourself as a reliable authority.

You need to find evidence from an outstanding
scholar with a PH D.

I have one such who argues:

"With regard to the Crucifixion, however, no early Christian writer ever disputed or doubted its occurrence on FRIDAY".

"The absence of any early Christian polemic regarding the day of Christ’s Crucifixion and Resurrection, offers, in our view, overwhelming proof of the trustworthiness of the traditional chronology of the Crucifixion and Resurrection".

First, let me introduce him:

WHO IS DR. SAMUELE BACCHIOCCHI?

Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi is an Italo-American scholar who has studied and lived in several countries. He was born and brought up in Rome, Italy, a stone-throw from the Vatican wall. For his college education he went to England where he earned a B. A. degree in Theology at Newbold College. From England he came to America for his graduate studies and earned a M. A. and a B. D. degrees at Andrews University Theological Seminary. Upon completing his seminary training in 1964, he went with his wife, Anna, to Ethiopia where he served for five years as Bible and History teacher.

In 1969 Dr. Bacchiocchi returned to his native city of Rome to study at the prestigious Pontifical Gregorian University, where he was the first non-Catholic to be admitted in over 450 years of its history. At the Gregoriana he spent the next five years working toward a Doctoratus in Church History. He was awarded a gold medal by Pope Paul VI for attaining the academic distinction of summa cum laude for his class-work and dissertation From Sabbath to Sunday.

After completing his doctorate in 1974, Dr. Bacchiocchi was invited to teach in the Religion Department of Andrews University, in Berrien Springs, Michigan. He has served at Andrews for 26 years as Professor of Theology and Church History until his retirement on July 2000. He travels extensively around the world lecturing at universities, theological seminaries, professional meetings, and religious gatherings.

Dr. Bacchiocchi has contributed numerous articles to religious journals and magazines. He has authored 15 books, which have been favorably reviewed by many scholars of differing persuasions. You can read below a brief description of each book, chapters from each book, and comments from scholars who have reviewed the books.

For the past twenty years Dr. Bacchiocchi has conducted seminars in many parts of the world, helping thousands to understand and experience more fully Biblical truths. If you wish to contact Dr. Bacchiocchi for any question, you can reach him by phone at (269) 471-2915, or by email at [email protected], or by mail at 4990 Appian Way, Berrien Springs, Michigan 49103.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Apparently the right reverend doctor missed the lecture regarding high holy days. The Jews would not have allowed Jesus to hang on a tree on Friday, a high holy day--they would have defiled themselves.

Beware the error of halo--all men are depraved--beatified or not. Even those with much learning will err--not knowing the scripture nor the power of God.

Jesus gave His life, the ransom for many, on a Wednesday afternoon.

Now what?

Selah,

Bro. James
pHd--Hardknocks U.

 

Bro.James,

What lecture? What High Holy Day?

"Israel Abrahams, a noted Jewish scholar, finds no instance before John 19:31 of the use of the term "high day" or "Great Sabbath" in Rabbinical literature. His opinion is that the later Rabbinic use of the term "Great Sabbath" to designate the Sabbath of the Passover season was borrowed from the church. While the latter is difficult to prove, it is a well-known fact that the church coined the terms "Good Friday" and "Holy Saturday" as designations for the special days of Christ’s Crucifixion and burial.

"It is noteworthy that Georgius Codinus (15th century) gives the official term for "Good Friday" as "he megale paraskeue—the great Preparation." This suggests the possibility that even the Sabbath of the Passion week came early to be known by Christians as a "high day" or a "Great Sabbath."

I ask you for some scholarship; not just gossip!

My own independent study verfies that Daniel's
prophecy required Passover to fall on a Friday
once every SEVEN years and that Palm Sunday also had to occur on Nisan 9 instead of Nisan 10 every SEVEN years.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Are you suggesting that John 19:31 is spurious?

No doubt the chronology of "Holy Week" has been coined--by the same group which would have us believe in the primacy of the Apostle Peter. They also misrepresented the facts.

Do not forget: the tradition of The Holy Church supercedes the Scripture when there is any disagreement. But then, there must be something wrong with your interpretation of scripture if it disagrees with the tradition. So we make another full circle in circular logic. We are back to following the traditions of depraved men.

"In vain ye do worship, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." Jesus, circa A.D. 33.

May not be very scholarly, but it certainly makes a ponderable point.

Another dumb question: How does one fit three days and three nights in the grave, a scripture fulfillment, between Friday afternoon and Sunday sunrise? Not a math scholar either, but I seem unable to get 72 hours in that kind of a calendar.

When the facts are considered, there certainly seems to be something bogus about how many do "Holy Week."

Now what? Why not have a Paschal Feast? That is the word translated Easter in the KJV. Would not that be a acceptable blend of Judaism and Paganism? It is probably acceptable--if we practice an error long enough it becomes a tradition--acceptable to many, perhaps. What about God?

Selah,

Bro. James

 

I did promise to get back to you, so I am "starting from the top".
Actually, I have not "calculated" any five day period, but am referring to a 'common "Holy Week" calender', or a 'traditional' one, such as one I found which gives 'names' to the days of the 'Passion Week' viz.- found in "The Biblicist", whatever that is, that I found on the internet, which gave most of the following (although I added some traditional liturgical names to some days).:

The Passion Week

(Palm)Sunday - Day of Demonstration
Monday - Day of Authority
Tuesday - Day of Conflict
(Silent) Wednesday - Day of Rest (no record)
(Maundy) Thursday - Day of Preparation
(Good) Friday - Day of Suffering
(Holy) Saturday - Jesus' Entombment
(Easter) Sunday - Day of Resurrection

This is what I'm referring to, in general.

"Day of visitation" seems to be a future event, as I read it, and from what I found at a quick search 'Day' and 'visitation' seem to be found in the same verse, only five times, (none in Daniel, BTW) in Scripture. I'm not sure one can make that tight a tie-in to "Day of visitation", and Daniel's prophecy of the 70 'Heptads' to arrive at a day of Friday or some other favorite day, Sir Robert Anderson, and some others for their favorite day, notwithstanding. While we do have a pretty good idea of when the commandment went forth to restore and build Jerusalem, at best, we are speculating on the exact day and time. I certainly would agree that this was fulfilled specifically, but we probably are straining, as to the exact 'when'.

Jesus did speak of Jerusalem in this way, here.

And I've already stated when I believe that Jesus died- Thursday.
Ed

 

Mel, I'm going to be nice, and ignore the implied 'slam' about my 'scholarship', as well as the 'crack' about "reliable".

(As an aside, I have a bit of neurological problems with my hands and fingers, due to 'periphreal neuropathy' due to being a type II diabetic, so occasionally make typing 'misteaks' that don't get corrected, as I have to read each post to edit, specifically. My mind does not misspell, but very seldom, but the fingers do not do such a good job of 'walking'.)

In fact, I never claimed any such. Nor did I cite myself, as an authority. But since you brought it up, I will merely mention what I possess. I attended the U. of K. for 2 1/2 years, and received a B.A., hcl, from F.B.C., now defunct. I have an N.D. from S.B.P., and also a Ph.D., although it happens to be in another field. I was merely 'expounding' and teaching a bit from what I believe Scripture teaches. I did invoke a small bit of instruction, in citing the Greek plural use of 'sabbaton'.

You may notice I seldom, if ever, do any such thing with Hebrew. That happens to be because I have never had any, and am not particularly self-taught. And I ain't startin' with Hebrew.

You are basically correct that I did not cite any "so-called, self-styled scholars", although I did give credit to the late Rev. W. Graham Scroggie, D.D., to whom I'm indebted for the 'genesis' for the outline of the gospels that I gave.

I have asked the question in other places. What exactly are the qualifications for a "scholar"? And who determines whether said qualifications have, in fact, been met? Not to mention, who determines the qualifiactions of the 'qualifiers'?

Is "outstanding scholar with a "PH D." (sic) another "improved" category, or two more. Can one be an outstanding scholar without a Ph.D.? Will a Th.D. suffice?

Could you possibly find a way to consider that the late John Gill, D.D., P. H. Mell, D.D., John L. Dagg, D.D., Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., George W. Truett. D.D., Harold Sightler, D.D., Harry A. Ironside, D.D., Oliver B. Greene, D.D., G. B. Vick, D.D., John A. Broaddus, D.D., B. H. Carroll, D.D., Richard Fuller, D.D., and Basil Manly, Sr., D.D., perhaps may have had a "scholar", preacher, or theologian or two among this Baker's dozen of University and Seminary Professors and Presidents and other Baptist leaders, excepting Drs. Wilbur M. Smith, who was of Presbyterian background, and Dr. H. A. Ironside, of whom I am not sure?

Assuming for the sake of discussion, you could, consider some of these as 'scholars', would you be surprised to know that these 14 had a collective total of four earned bachelor's degrees, among them? And Dr. Broaddus received an A.M., which I do not know whether it was actually earned or not? I'll put a couple of these up as "scholars", but maybe that is just me. Sorry, gotta run again.
In His grace,
Ed

 

That's a great bit of information.

 

Ed,

I solute you on the breadth of understanding as to Daniel's 70 Sevens. But I question your conclusions:
Quote:
________________________________________________
"Day of visitation" seems to be a future event.
I'm not sure one can make that tight a tie-in to `Day of visitation', and Daniel's prophecy of the 70 'Heptads' to arrive at a day of Friday.

"While we do have a pretty good idea of when the commandment went forth to restore and build Jerusalem, we are speculating on the exact day and time. I certainly would agree that this was fulfilled specifically, but we probably are straining, as to the exact 'when'".
_______________________________________________

You seem to be saying Jesus was "speculating"
when He said the prophecy was fulfilled on "THIS
DAY", Palm Sunday. So, to say Jesus was speaking of the future, IMO, utterly ignores the fact that
Daniel's prophecy was fulfilled on Palm Sunday
and that He would be "cut off after that" on Passover Day.

The decree to rebuild Jerusalem's walls was made
in the month of Nisan ... and 483 years later was fulfilled just 21 days short of fulfilling the (69 Sevens) on Nisan 30. Jesus said THIS DAY of Visitation was fulfilled which the Jews did not recognize.

Sir Robert Anderson discovered that the 476 years
from BC 445 to AD 32, overlaid on a continuous
360-day calendar, produced 483 years as of Nisan
30, the 5th Sunday of the final year. Anderson did not realize the secret of the 70 sets of Seven.

The secret is that the 483 years ended on Nisan
30; but the countdown on a continuous 360-day
calendar put Passover on FRIDAY, the 14th, just
once every Seven years ... because Palm Sunday
had to occur on Nisan 9 to complete the 21 days
as of Nisan 30. (Every month was 30 days in
order to produce Passover on a Friday just 69
times between BC 445 and AD 32).

The "last day" of the 476 years on a solar calendar was Palm Sunday, 21 days short of the last day of the 483 years. Visitation Day was Palm Sunday, Nisan 9, with other prophecies fulfilled besides that of Daniel's 69 sets of Seven.

Once every seven years Nisan 9 occurred on the
2nd Sunday of the month and Passover on FRIDAY,
Nisan 14. The 21 days ended the countdown of 476 years on Palm Sunday; but the 483 years ended on
Nisan 30. The Day of Visistation HAD TO BE NISAN 9 (30-21=Nisan 9), the exact "last day" of the 476 solar years from BC 445 to AD 32.

The math is simple. If Palm Sunday occurred on the 8th, the 21st day thereafter would have fallen short of Nisan 30 (the last day of 483 years). If Palm Sunday fell on Nisan 10, the last day of the 483rd years would have gone over into the first day of the following month's and year's countdown.

"The term `prosabbaton-Sabbath-eve' was used by Hellenistic Jews to designate explicitly and exclusively `the day before the Sabbath, i.e. Friday' (Judith 8:6; 2 Macc. 8:26). Thus Mark, by defining `paraskeue-Preparation' as being the `prosabbaton-Sabbath-eve,' gives the clearest possible definition to his Gentile readers of what he meant by `paraskeue,' namely, the day before the weekly Sabbath. Clarifications of time references by a qualifying clause are common in Mark, evidently because the author knew that his Gentile readers were generally unfamiliar with Jewish terms and customs".

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Brother James,

NO, I am not "suggesting that John 19:31 is spurious"!

But if it was, then there should have been
a debate and settlement IN THE EARLY CHURCH for observing the Passover on some other day than Friday. The practice of Good Friday was not started by the Roman church; but by Christians who knew Palm Sunday had to be on Nisan 9 and Passover on Nisan 14 to fulfill the DAy of Visitation just 21 days short of Nisan 30.

There are two vital reasons why the idiomatic
phrase "any part of a day was often considered
a whole day and night."

If it were not so, then Luke would contradict
Matthew and Mark that it was "about 8 days"
instead of "after six days" when Jesus took
the three up to the Mt. of Transfiguration.

Second, with "some" Christians still facing death when the Two Prophets are killed on the
final 1260th day of prophecy, they will be
expectantly looking for the "last trump" to
sound the 2nd time for Jesus to "gather all
who survive to the End FROM EARTH TO HEAVEN" as
promised in Mark 13:27 and I Thess.4:16.

He will come on one of the "days immediatly after the great tribulation". Mark 13:24; Matt.
24:29. But since the 3 1/2 days of Rev.11:7-11
occur after chronos-time is no longer subject to a countdown, the last day will be anywhere from two to four days after the Two Prophets are killed based on the Jewish idiom.

Believers will be expecting Christ at any moment after the quake in Jerusalem kills 7000 of the Beast's elite Revolutionary Guard.

No one knows in advance on which Day the sun
will turn dark and the aftershock of the great
quake of Rev.6:12 affects a tenth of Jerusalem
as of Rev.11:13 (about one hour later). But the Saints who survive, while frightened, will glorify God knowing that within the next hour
or two, the "last trump" will sound the 2nd
time to "gather them from earth to heaven"
(Mark 13:27) and a 3rd time for the angels to "gather them out of all extremities of the heavenS" while the tribes of earth "mourn"! Matt.24:30-31.

The importance of the idiom becomes very clear.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

This believer does not plan on being on this earth during The Tribulation The Great. I am looking for rapture, bema seat, marriage supper, and millenial reign. Most all of your references are referring to Israel and the 144,000 saved during the Great Trouble.

The Bride be not there, Bro.

Beware the "idioma" of the Pharisees.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

Bro. James,

I respect your viewpoint since I believed as you
do until I was 25 years of age 60 years ago.

I was taught by a Plymouth Brethren pastor and
sat under the ministry of Dr. Harry Ironsides
while a student at MBI.

I noticed you gave no Scripture to support your
view that you will not be here during the great
tribulation.

Nor did you refute the Scriptures I gave that
Jesus will "gather the elect from earth to
heaven" on one of the days after the great
tribulation". He promised to "raise up every/all believers on the last day".

I had to accept that Jesus said "He did not pray the Father should take us out of the world; but to keep us from the evil"!

Why? Because while "we have not been appointed to wrath, we will suffer persecution and some will not taste death, by any means, until after they have seen His kingdom coming in power".

Those Believers who face the final days of martyrdom "will not taste death, by any means", DURING the 1260 days of great tribulation!
Mark 9:1; Rev.12:10-11.

Brother, I pray you will be prepared for what is
coming.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Until recently, I was somewhere between Mid and Post-Trib Rapture. Now I am a pre-trib advocate. This is not to say that God cannot keep His elect through all persecution--even through death. My position changed because of the realization that the 24th of Matthew is written to the Jews. Also: Rev. 3:10, "Because thou(the churches)has kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Could a "type" of this have been the "Dark Ages", when the "Holy See" tried to make havoc of the New Testament Churches? Yes; however this was not the Tribulation, The Great. Do you think The Lord will take His Bride through another Dark Age?

I also point out that the churches are gone after Rev. 3:22.

Also, "...a thousand years is as a day to God", tells me that we are coming to the close of the sixth day(6,000 years since the creation). We are in the end of time as we know it. A lot of prophecy is being fulfilled, even as we contemplate our navels.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

Bro. James,

Jesus anticipated the promise of Rev.3:10. You
are putting the "Hour of Trial" too soon since
He applied the very "words" of Rev.3:10 to the
Day and Hour in which He comes "suddenly and
no one will escape" except he is among the Elect whom He "gathers from earth to heaven" while the tribes of earth "mourn"! Mark 13:27; Matt.24:30.

Jesus will "gather the elect from earth to heaven" before He sends the angels to "gather
them out of all extremities of the heavenS". In the process the "tribes of earth will mourn" and
may ESCAPE God's wrath only if they "pray to escape and to stand before the Son of Man".
Luke 21:34-36.

Escaping the Hour of Trial is for those who
"overcome and endure and survive to the End".
They will have "kept His word to endure and
will be kept from the Hour of Trial" that
comes "suddenly on all of earth's inhabitants"
when Christ appears.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Bro. James,

Jesus anticipated the promise of Rev.3:10. You
are putting the "Hour of Trial" too soon since
He applied the very "words" of Rev.3:10 to the
Day and Hour in which He comes "suddenly and
no one will escape" except he is among the Elect whom He "gathers from earth to heaven" while the tribes of earth "mourn"! Mark 13:27; Matt.24:30.

Jesus will "gather the elect from earth to heaven" before He sends the angels to "gather
them out of all extremities of the heavenS". In the process the "tribes of earth will mourn" and
may ESCAPE God's wrath only if they "pray to escape and to stand before the Son of Man".
Luke 21:34-36.

Escaping the Hour of Trial is for those who
"overcome and endure and survive to the End".
They will have "kept His word to endure and
will be kept from the Hour of Trial" that
comes "suddenly on all of earth's inhabitants"
when Christ appears.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

It just occured to me that theres a topic just like this one in the general baptist forum. Thats 2 threads, 2 forums, 1 topic.

 

True, Donna, at least as to the general 'direction' of the topic. However this one has been around longer. But they are from differing OPs.

Let's see, one is from someone apparently banned ; one is from somewhat of a notorious "hit-and-run" poster .

I guess one does get to choose between the evil of two lessers.

In HIs grace,

Ed

 

two lessers,,,, LOL