Featured God uses means

My pleasure.

Therefore, that discussion was not about means UNTO eternal salvation.

None of your scriptures proved anything with regards as to the salvation in question was the soul's eternal salvation.
I believe most of those scriptures spoke to the regenerate sinner's gospel salvation.

All due respects, but my beliefs are perfectly in line with everything Scripture states about Christ's finished work, and its effect on that part of humanity we both call the elect, for whom the work was done and the blood shed.

I will.

In due time, after Sunday perhaps, I shall post a new thread on the differences between gospel salvation as well as its scope, breadth and purposes, and that of eternal salvation: scope, breadth and purpose where they may be seen.

So the dispute is whether His mediatorship and surety for the elect is sufficient without the elect inputting his repentance into the work of Christ ?

There you go, if so, then those who have not, and will not hear the gospel, who are of the elect, and therefore unable to heed its call to repentance, have been covered since unrepentance and unbelief are sins, too.
I am not disputing whether repentance is part of the gospel call.
It is.
What I am disputing is presenting it as a necessary component without which eternal salvation cannot be true to the elect.
Now, might I ask you, and Rippon, and even Mitchell, do you guarantee that the gospel will reach everyone for whom it is intended ? all the elect of God everywhere, in all phases or chronology of time in order for them to avail of the "means" which you all insist God uses to eternally save His people ?

This is why only His blood is acceptable. Only His sacrifice. Why the sinner is hid in Christ, as well as the sinner's life.

I will. Like I said, I am going to start a new thread relevant to this and the closed one.

again, in due time.

If by "this" you mean regeneration, this is absolutely and solely the province of the Holy Spirit.
Again, I state that in both (my apologies if I did not make this clear in all my previous posts and threads) regeneration and eternal salvation, God uses no means.
As far as "missionaries", I haven't seen missions (as they are implemented today and for their purposes as stated today) in the Bible.
The only ones who may be called missionaries, if that at all, besides Jesus Christ Himself, would be the apostles, and Barnabas.
And I don't see them "winning souls for Christ" as in for the purposes of eternal salvation.
I see them TEACHING and pointing to Christ as the author of a finished salvation, and calling for repentance, yes, of an already regenerate audience.
The 3,000 were "pierced to their hearts" indicates these were regenerate souls burdened by their sins.
They asked to be saved, yes, but was the reply to them indicative of eternal salvation ?

Well, what is to explain ?
Can man be everywhere to preach the gospel in order that every elect should have the opportunity to hear of his Savior, and that he needed to repent in order for that salvation to be his, and that blood appropriated to him, as you indicate ?
Man is limited by his ability to be everywhere.
The blood of Christ, on the other hand, covers every one of them from the past, to the present, to the future,.

I am not just speaking of infants, or the mentally handicapped. I am speaking of each and everyone of the elect that were chosen out of all kindreds, and nations, and tribes, and tongues.
This language indicates that God's people are found in all segments of time, and history, and demographics.

I just quoted above the Biblical support. It is from Revelations 5:9.
I quoted this in another thread to you, but if you did not read it, here it is again:
And they sung a new song, saying , Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain , and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

The above means were used for good. I contested the implication that God uses evil means to bring out good mainly eternal or gospel salvation His elect.

suit yourself.

Did you read the post ? I said perhaps the king was elect, and some among the people.......

In Jonah's case, I reiterate, the result was timely deliverance for the Ninevites, not eternal.

oh, yeah, the old "the secret things belong to the Lord....."
funny that God should decide for Himself whose are His, and whom He left to their sins, and not let those whom He calls to preach know fully what His intents are.

It is definitely and absolutely wrong to say that God used means to secure the eternal redemption of His people, and to regenerate those whom He wishes to regenerate.
God has no need for puny, sin-laden human beings for the redemption and regeneration of His own.
At any rate, redemption is OVER.
Like I said, none of those things (cross, shedding of blood, resurrection of Christ) will be repeated anymore.
The un-elect has been judged, as well as Satan.
All that's in the past.
The promulgation of sentence ?
Future. Great White Throne.

Talk to ya again on Monday.

 

Of course there will be a division. Is that even in question here ? There will be a division because Judaism points to the law, and a coming Messiah, while Jesus says He IS that Messiah and He came to fulfill the law, and Paul and everyone else in the New Testament pointed to Christ instead of the Law, in speaking to those who are fully committed Judaists.
Christ was a missionary direct from God, teaching His people what He heard from God, and Paul and the others were missionaries taught directly by Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit.
They taught ONE doctrine, ONE church, ONE baptism.
What about us of this generation, and the past ones ?
Look around you.
In your own area, how many can you count teach ONE doctrine, ONE church, ONE baptism ?
Go to one of these "congregations" and see if you don't create division yourself among them ?
Some will follow you, some won't.

Alright. Yes. I see what you're saying.
It was my error, in wording my statement.
I should have said (which is what I really meant) "to the regenerates and the elect in the crowd".

Again, let me repeat.
We do not disagree that the gospel is the a means by which God converts those who are already regenerate, among His elect.
We do disagree that without the gospel there can be no eternal salvation for His elect, and that they all must hear and obey the gospel to be saved (eternally), or that the Holy Spirit needs means to regenerate His people.

And what are you trying to do ? Wherever did I give God orders in my statement ? I said "and not let those whom He calls to preach know fully what His intents are".
Let me tell you what His intents are.
His intents in sending out His apostles, first, and then those whom He calls to preach, from the churches so gathered, is to to have, in this time world, local assemblies of His regenerate elect, in order for them to (1) receive gospel instruction in the gospel life,(2) to worship Him in their midst, and (3) within sight and the midst of their own crooked generations.
It is not His intent to send out preachers to POINT TO THE GOSPEL AS THE MEANS OF ETERNAL SALVATION.
I said what I said, because of the so many variations of how eternal salvation was achieved for His people.
There is only one way: His blood.
The gospel is NOT IT.

Maybe you and company can point to Scriptures showing God using means to secure the eternal future of those who are not of His own people.

Nothing. What is wrong with this is you took it out of the context in which it was said by "cut and paste".

 

WELL DONE:thumbs: Who said ya cant talk American?!? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[FONT=&quot]Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.[/FONT]

The plan was the Great Commission.
The means were the eleven remaining apostles (and by inference all that would follow him).

He left the evangelization of the world, and even for centuries to come, in the hands of just eleven men. Those eleven men were the means that he used to bring salvation to the world. He had no other back up plan. That was it.
God uses means. His means is men.

[FONT=&quot]2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2 Timothy 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.[/FONT]
--This is the principle of spiritual reproduction. Paul led Timothy to the Lord, and then discipled him. Timothy was to do the same, and thus Christianity would spread.

 

I appreciate your input but your scriptures simply highlighted what this discussion is all about. There are NO SCRIPTURES whatsoever the "means" people can point to showing God and the Holy Spirit using means for the eternal salvation and/or quickening or regeneration of those who are not His own.

 

I appreciate your input but your scriptures simply highlighted what this discussion is all about. There are NO SCRIPTURES whatsoever the "means" people can point to showing God and the Holy Spirit using means for the eternal salvation and/or quickening or regeneration of those who are not His own. And even those who are His elect.

 

[FONT=&quot]1 Corinthians 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.[/FONT]

 

What context are you using "by all means" in? So by all means, try to break through.......

And here is Christ saying.......If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet.

 

I'm sorry to intrude Pinoy but I don't think they understand the differences in the Effectual call & the Gospel call.

The effectual call is an "internal call" & the gospel call is an "external appeal" The effectual call produces life (2 Tim. 1:9); the gospel call produces light (2 Tim. 1:10). Begin the discussion using that model & this will be a hole lot easier to comprehend.

 

I am not a Calvinist.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
How is a person born again or regenerated?

[FONT=&quot]1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.[/FONT]
The answer is through the Word of God.
The Holy Spirit works through the Word of God. The gospel must be preached first. As the Holy Spirit works through the Word, the sinner is convicted, and will put his faith and trust in Christ. It is still his faith, his decision, his choice.
God does not force anyone to make a decision.
He draws them by his grace. He convicts them of their sin. They make the decision. They must hear the Word first.
We are born again by the Word of God.

 

thats fine ....neither am I but I ask you to look at this in its full context.

2 Timothy 1:9-10
9 He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

 

So now, Paul is usurping Christ's authority ?

 

Not at all. What Paul says doesn't jive with your theology which must indicate that you are wrong.
Paul is teaching that wherever he is he must adopt to the culture he is in. When Hudson Taylor went to China he changed his dress or clothing to the same kind of dress that the Chinese wore. He learned their language, ate their food, lived in the same kind of house that they did; that the common person did--not in luxury. He adopted.
When Paul ministered to the Romans he lived as a Roman.
When Paul ministered to the Greeks he lived as a Greek and yet not partaking of any pagan ceremonies.
When Paul lived among the Jews he lived as a Jew as much as he could.
He used those means which were available to him. At one point he used his Roman citizenship as a means to get the government to give the church more freedom. Paul used whatever means were available to him to reach others.
If that goes against your theology than so be it.

 

I quoted you Romans 10 and 1Pet.1. You say look at the context and quote from 2Tim.1. How is that context?

He has called those that are saved to a holy life. No one disagrees.

What kind of translation are you using:
[FONT=&quot]2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:[/FONT]

Jesus Christ is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. He knows all things. He knew from the Beginning of time who would be saved. That doesn't mean they were saved from the beginning of time if that is what you are implying.

 

The truth though still reamins that we need to receive jesus thru faith in order to get saved, as the Grace that saves us is mediated towards us thru that means, correct?

 

pinoybaptist

acts 8[/QUOTE]
4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word

5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.

6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.

7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8 And there was great joy in that city.

SIGN GIFTS AND MIRACLES WERE MEANS

29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
GOD USES MEN TO REACH MEN.

 

Like I said, nothing proven. You guys will need to keep tearing Scripture out of context to make it say what you want to mean. Evil spirits coming out of men ? The lame walking again ? Come on, Icon. I expect more of you than that. Honest.
It doesn't prove your doctrines that God uses means to regenerate or eternally save His people. Those miracles and healings CONFIRMED the calling of the ones by whom God worked those miracles.
Do you remember what the Lord said about serpents and poisons to His disciples ?
The Ethiopian ?
Are you now saying a spiritually dead totally depraved unregenerate sinner will show interest in the things of God ?
That the Holy Spirit, Himself the very God who wrote the names of His people in His book of life will waste time whisking Stephen from one spot to another for one not His own ?
:We all of us need and needed somebody to expound Scripture to us the time AFTER we were born again. Now, THAT is the very purpose for teachers and preachers

 

But he said "..........save some."
And I believe you are replying and quoting Paul in response to the disagreement about God using means to save and/or regenerate people.
So, is Paul saying he became everything to everyone in order to save those he comes in contact with, from the lake of fire Do you believe that's what he meant ?

 

And how else would you say the Ethiopian got saved.
Here are some things you need to consider:

First define "spiritually dead." What does that mean to you? Better yet, what is the Biblical definition.
Second, we know he wasn't saved. Luke's account says as much, and I don't believe the Holy Spirit is lying in the inspired Word. Thus this unregenerated spiritually dead person was indeed reading the scriptures. He was interested. His problem was in understanding. Therefore he asked Philip to come and help him understand the scriptures.
Both the scriptures and Philip were the MEANS of his salvation.

What does "spiritually dead" mean?