Featured Sovereign Election

This is an excellent example of taking the literalist interpretation while disregarding the deeper spiritual meaning.

I killed many in my pre-Christian days, including Christians.

My sword was the ‘thoughts of my imagination’ as well as my ‘unruly, evil tongue, full of deadly poison.’

Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Are you claiming to be among the guilt-free innocent?

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

 

No, I am claiming that Paul is quoting from a Psalm--Psalm 14 to be exact. Some of the verses are poetic in nature but they still describe the unsaved man. They are truths but stated in a general way, not an absolute way.

For example,
Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
--This is not an absolute statement. It is not true of every single person on earth. It is a general statement of mankind in general. Obviously some people seek God, even as God has commanded mankind to seek him.
Cornelius sought after God before he was regenerated.
If you ask missionaries they will tell you of many who sought after the "true God," before God sent them a missionary to tell them of that God.
Often the response is "Why didn't you come sooner so that my ancestors could have heard this message?"

It is not an "absolute statement." It is a "general statement" of what man does.
So is the statement in John: "Men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil."
It is a general statement. Do you think that is true of every single man.
How is that true of Cornelius. It is not that testimony that is recorded of him in Scripture even before Peter came.

 

Without question. We have the testimony of Christ’s crucifixion as the single most despicable act in all of history as proof.

I’m sure had we been present as Jews we, too, would have been crying for His crucifixion.

Do you not agree?

 

Cornelius was significant in that he was a Gentile recipient of God’s saving grace.

His conversion represented a turning point in evangelism geared toward the Gentiles.

In the same way that Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord, so did Cornelius.

As do all Christians.

 

The Bible says nothing about when Noah found grace in the sight of the Lord, that is, when he actually came to a "saving faith" in Jehovah.
But it does say a lot about Cornelius.
It doesn't matter what you believe. The Scripture is plain. Cornelius was neither regenerated nor saved until he had heard the gospel and had put his faith in the gospel, and that was well after Peter came.

 

You can use Cornelius as your alleged 'primary proof' of salvation as our opponents view it.

I prefer to use the teachings of Christ, who had so much more to say about the grace of God than Cornelius.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man -- not some men, not any men -- can come to Christ [for salvation], except the Father [supernaturally by the Spirit] draw him.

That would include Cornelius and all Christians.

All things in Cornelius which found favor with God were God's gifts of love, grace, mercy and compassion.

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

When you meet Cornelius in Heaven I've no doubt he will set you straight:

"Not by works of righteousness which I have done, but according to his mercy he saved me, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

 

Well, the Bible doesn't contradict itself. You have made your case. Let us consider some other scripture.

First, Isaiah 1:1-9.
Isa 1:2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.
--Over and over again Jehovah pleads for Israel, a nation who for centuries has been rebelling against Him. But he never gives up. He doesn't plead for just some of them, but for all of them to repent.
--In the same way we see Jesus:
Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
--Jesus weeping over Jerusalem.
Who was in Jerusalem? Judas? Annas? Caiaphas? The entire Sanhedrin? The Roman soldiers?
Jesus wept over the entire city of Jerusalem--all of its citizens or all that lived there--not just the elect, or some small group. Not just his disciples! He wept over them all!
Jesus loved more than just the elect. This is very evident through this scripture.

Jesus, in his earthly ministry, never turned anyone away. He plainly said:
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
--He wasn't speaking to just the elect, but to all. This was Jesus invitation to all to come to him, whoever had any burden, and he would give them "rest."
--It was to "whosoever" was weary, burdened or thirsty, etc.
Or, Whosoever would believe on him would be saved.

God gave his son for the salvation of the whole world.
He is not willing that any should perish.

Now in order to get around the plain sense of scripture, one has to annul what this very clear teaching is. IOW, one must change the meaning. Thus "whosoever," and "all" become "elect," when otherwise they are not used that way. The only reason such changes are made is to support Calvinism.

What did Jesus say in John 12:32?
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Does the "all" mean "all of God's elect"? No.
The "all" means ALL. He will draw all men to himself, just as it says he will. One should not add to the scriptures.

One of the primary premises to work from is simply: "God is love." This is one of the great themes of the Book of John, where John presents Christ and His love for others. "God so loved..."
"A new commandment I give unto you that you love one another, by this shall all men know that you are my disciples, that you love..."
"If you love me, keep my commandments."
"Love your neighbor as yourself."
"Love the Lord your God..."

But the Calvinist presents God as one who only loves God's elect.
He also presents God as One who hates the non-elect and shows no mercy to them whatsoever. Thus God is not a God of love at all.

In John 6:37 and John 6:44, both of these verses must be interpreted in harmony with the overall message of God's love for all.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
--This does not say that all that the Father draws comes to Christ.
"I will raise him up at the last day" refers to those who actually came to Christ, and not ALL that were drawn.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
--hmmm

 

Yes, it does. Both Jews and Greeks --Hebrews and Gentiles. Have you ever looked at verses 20-22?

Have you taken a gander at 10:51 and 52? :
"...that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one."

With the blood of Christ he "purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation." (Rev.5:9)

"...from every nation, tribe, people and language..." (Rev.7:9)

He will draw all of his own to himself.

"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away." (vs.37)

Each and every one the Father draws comes to Jesus. It is inescapable DHK.
In verse 39 it states very clearly :"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."

No one can come to Jesus unless the Father who sent him draws them, but each and every one will be raised up at the last day by Jesus. See verse 44 for confirmation of this guarantee.

And I have refuted that bogus claim of yours above.

 

DHK.

.

The bible does not say this or teach this. God is very willing that many perish.

And then you demonstrate this very thing when you explain away the clear teaching using the "VAN " method of interpretation......right here-

You offer false teaching once again in direct contradiction to the text of scripture;

44 no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;

you have become unraveled and exposed as a teacher of falsehoods. The only good thing is how you are publically exposed...

Your anti cal agenda has distorted your ability to come to truth...you suggest here that the context does not determine the meaning of the words...lets see where your foolishness leads you next-

Of course it does...only those elected get saved. he is saying ALL in contrast to the Jew only.....He had just explained the children of God are scattered world wide, not Israel only. The gospel was going worldwide which was always God's design.

How did Jesus being lifted up...draw Pharoahs soldiers?

How did it draw Jezebel?

How did it draw Goliath?

You said all means all......do not hide behind conscience, or creation light...It is speaking of Jesus being lifted up. Your attempted explanation is lame.
Your denial of God's electing Covenant love is a falsehood.

No one other than you and VAN do on BB....we just understand what is taught and believe it.

God is Holy and Just...he has love and wrath as Divine attributes...

Paul says the wrath of God is revealed from heaven...he does not say the love of God is revealed from heaven in Romans 1.....he did not begin as you suggest.
In Love God did send His Son for those given to Him....he came to seek and save them....He saves everyone of them.....not one of THEM is lost.

Only the Elect are enabled by God to obey these lawful commands.

The saving love of God is only found IN CHRIST...that is what the scripture teaches. the Calvinist believes these scriptures which you trample on , in favor of your own carnal ideas of what you think God should do instead.

Again...Scripture says this very thing...we believe it, you do not;

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.


18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Do you find fault DHK? Do you dislike the biblical God? The one described here in Romans 9?

The biblical God is a God of many attributes....

yes those elected to salvation are enabled to preservere unto the end as Christ works in them:thumbs:

 

We posted at the same time:laugh: This is almost unbelievable:thumbsup:
I thought Van was out to lunch saying no man seeks God at all times, like when he is sinning:laugh:
Now DHK springs this out late at night under cover of darkness:laugh:

 

Your post is full of flaws, such as this one. It is a denial of Scripture.
God is not willing that any should perish. Now you argue with God, saying: "You are wrong God, you are willing that many should perish!"
A pitiful denial of God's Word!

This is solid hermeneutics, that all scripture must harmonize together and not contradict each other as the Calvinist must do. But you disagree, and have the audacity to call the above principle "false teaching." It is taught by many sound expositors of scripture including John MacArthur.
--How have you publicly exposed me? You haven't.
Through the death of our Savior, He drew all men to himself.

It is not false teaching to expose the error of Calvinism which is very evident. When whosoever means whoever that is the meaning. To force Calvinism into the text one has to change this very evident meaning into a ridiculous meaning of "elect." That is not rightly dividing the word of truth, and if you were honest with the scriptures and yourself you would admit it.

Already answered. You really can't give a sound answer so you just hurl insults instead. This is the second time you have accused me of the same thing.
Concerning verse 44, those that actually do come to the Father (if you happen to read the rest of the chapter) are those that believe on his name. On that basis they are called, not randomly selected before the foundation of the earth, but on His omniscient knowledge of who will, out their own free will, by faith, put their trust in Christ. Those are the ones that the Father gives to Christ.

My agenda is to post the truth and expose error.
It is absolute error to turn the meaning of "whosoever" into "elect." Not only is it error; it is foolishness. The only reason it is done is to force pre-conceived ideas into a text that doesn't teach them.

When Christ "was lifted up," He meant, not only the elect, but ALL in the world from that time onward and in each and every generation. All means all. The OT looks forward to the cross and we look back to the cross. It is the center point of all of history. He has drawn all men to himself.
Christ likened it to two roads. All men go down one of two roads. One is wide and broad and it leads to destruction. The other is narrow and it leads to eternal life. Each one must make the choice which he chooses. Christ does not choose for that person. He is not chosen before the foundation of the earth which choice he is going to make. God may know but doesn't force the choice. Only Calvinism in its false theology does the forcing.

He drew them all. That they rejected His love was a bad decision on their part. Each of them had many opportunities to repent. There is not a single person that God has never loved.

"God so loved the world..."
Herein is your denial of Scripture and you insert a twisted form of your definition of covenantal theology which isn't there. You are the one denying the scripture here.
God loves all. He has given light to all, and in Romans 1:20 plainly says that ALL "are without excuse."

You are wrong; who is the "we"? Speak for yourself.

God created all in love and looked on his creation and said it was very good.
He started with love and ends in love.
You read Romans 1. In verse 20 he says those that reject his love are deserving of his justice, for they are "without excuse," as we also would be.
He sent His Son that none would perish.
His will is that "all might be saved."
"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."
There is no one that God doesn't love.
It was to the unsaved Sadducees and Pharisees that Christ commanded:
"Love your neighbor as yourself."
Even the unsaved know innately that they are to express love one to another. Why? They are made in the image of God. And yet, Calvinism portrays God as a God of hate, hating his creation that he sends to an eternity of torment in the Lake of Fire, never offering them a chance to be saved having blinded their eyes to the gospel if they should hear it. What a monster have the Calvinists painted of their God! Even the unsaved know better than that!

Jesus gave the command to Love your neighbor as yourself to all mankind and expected them to keep it.

God is a God of love. His love is not carnal. Love is love. His love is divine to all. You do not believe in God's love. That is apparent.

Why do you pit God's justice against God's love as if one is greater than the other. Of course God loved them all, with an infinite love. His grace and love was extended to them all. When it was refused and rejected then they justly received his judgment. Why would you assume God unjustly punishes and doles out judgment without mercy.
God is a loving and merciful God but somehow you don't believe that wonderful truth about God. Calvinism has influenced you to deny these wonderful truths about God.

Yes, He is a God of many attributes. Calvinism shoves some of most wonderful attributes to the back shelf never to speak of them.
Did you know that Islam has 99 attributes of God and love is not one of them? Hmmm.
I believe in preservation not perseverence.

2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

 

So you believe Calvinism teaches a false gospel about a false god, comparable to Islam. Is that what I'm reading here?

:BangHead:

 

I made a statement about Islam, but I didn't compare Calvinism to it. Why do you guys always make that leap and jump off the cliff with a mention of another religion?
Again and again, we are told that "Calvinism is the gospel" with quotes from Spurgeon and others. One cannot be saved apart from the truths of Calvinism, said one poster. We are expected to absorb the bombardments of such drivel and as soon as I come back and demonstrate some of this error you go on the defensive and are ready to press a complaint button?? Make an accusation.

Yes, there is much error in Calvinism which leads a person down a wrong road.
What do you guys preach? "Here is the gospel. I want to be honest and clear about this. Your name might not be in the Book of Life. So search your heart now and be sure you are one of the elect before you listen to this, because it may not be for you. I don't want to unnecessarily disappoint you because Christ died only for the elect, and you might not be one of them. First, make sure of your election."
Is that how you end your gospel messages? Are you truthful in what you preach? Do you tell the unsaved that they may be mercilessly damned to hell and there is not a thing you can do about it even if you tell them the gospel?
What kind of love is that? It is not God's love.

 

DHK

The bible does not say in Any one verse...God is not willing that any perish......produce a complete verse that says that.

To accuse me of denying scripture when there is no such verse....is a lie.

Show the verse if you can......I know you cannot so my post stands....repent of your lie would be the next step

 

So Dhk

Now you say ALL in first Jn 12......does not mean.....ALL men who ever lived.

So you limit or qualify the ALL...........lol......like you accuse the Cal of...l

 

Dude, relax. Seriously.

You said Calvinism denies the love of God (laughably not true) and then said Islam does not recognize love as an attribute of Allah. What connection are we supposed to make?

You never stop misrepresenting Calvinism do you? At this point I think you are incapable of it. You need to examine your heart and maybe get your head examined.

As for how I end my gospel presentations I typically say something to the effect of, "If what I have explained to you makes sense and you see your need for salvation you need to repent and trust in Christ alone. He died to perfectly save his people and if you trust in him completely then you will be saved and never again will any sin be counted against you. But if you do not repent and you reject Christ then you will suffer the wrath of God."

 

DHK

your denial of the blessing of election before the foundation of the world and calling the teaching ridiculous. .....shows and exposes your spiritual defects......and make no mistake. ....the more you post your wild theories. ...you sink like you are thrashing around in quicksand..

 

RL Bosley

Sadly when someone turns against the truth.....in a display of the flesh...many times God will expose them publically.

There is no attempt to come to truth.....instead these foolish posts attack the truth....24/7......we now see the fragmented thoughts on display.