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Featured Baptismal regeneration

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Rebel, Feb 23, 2015.

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  1. Robert William

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    Any theological book that does not line up with scripture is an abomination.
     
  2. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    Of course it is. But protestants have a very hard time letting go.
     
  3. The American Dream

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    Scripture does not contradict Scripture. Jesus is no more talking about baptism in John 3:5 than the man on the moon. He is referring to spiritual cleansing. Those who hold to the baptism explanation are denying salvation is only by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Why is it we always have to add a "something I got to do" to salvation? Nicodemus was unfamiliar with baptism, so Christ would have told him he needed to be baptized if that is what He meant. If nothing else, the thief on the cross clears the issue up pretty well. Some people say he was saved under the old covenant. But they turn right around and say John 3:5, at the same point in time, people have to be baptized. Matthew 28:20, go, tell, baptize, teach. Baptism is an outward sign of salvation in Jesus Christ by immersion, to a newness of life, and symbolizes the death, burial and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Regenerational baptism does not exist. Sprinkling infants based on a covenant relationship between parent and child does not save. Jesus Christ saves. Infant sprinkling is wrong on so many levels. Its almost like some of the Protestant denominations felt obligated to hold onto the RCC traditions.
     
  4. Robert William

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    Great answer, I could not have said it better myself, thanks.:thumbs:
     
  5. Zenas

    Zenas Active Member

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    Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” John 3:5.
    1. Everyone would agree that being born of water and the Spirit (John 3:5) is the same thing as being “born again” (John 3:3). Well, almost everyone except those benighted souls who think the water has something to do with childbirth. So what does it mean to be born again? We see what it means in Romans 6:4: “Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.” The newness of life is a reference to being born again.

    2. The larger context of this passage shows a theme of cleansing, of which baptism is an essential element, whether it is viewed from a symbolic perspective or from a salvific or regenerational perspective. John 1 tells of the works of John the Baptist and the baptism of Jesus. In John 2 we see Jesus cleansing the temple. After the Nicodemus meeting in John 3, we see Jesus baptizing with His disciples. The baptizing continues into Chapter 4, where we also see the woman at the well and living water. So cleansing is one of several themes we see as we read through the Gospel of John and baptism is a cleansing ritual. See. Acts 22:16.

    3. It was universally held that John 3:5 refers to water baptism from the 1st Century until Huldrych Zwingli in the16th Century decided otherwise. The church fathers who expressly held to this view include Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Cyprian of Carthage, Cyril of Jerusalem, Athanasius, Basil the Great, Ambrose of Milan, Gregory of Nyssa, John Chrysotom, Gregory of Nazianz, and Augustine. I have not discovered anyone who held another view during that period of time. There are those who pay little attention to historical development of Christian doctrines but they are missing out on the wisdom of the ages by their failure to do so. I pay attention to these things and show them great deference unless they are manifestly contrary to scripture. The idea that baptism is only symbolic is a new idea in Christian thinking, and a wrong idea.

    4. Before Jesus and before John, baptism was a common practice in the Jewish world. Anyone who converted to the Jewish faith had to be baptized. The water of immersion (mikvah) in Rabbinic literature was referred to as the womb of the world, and as a convert came out of the water it was considered a new birth separating him from the pagan world. His status was changed and he was referred to as "a little child just born" or "a child of one day". We see the New Testament using similar Jewish terms as "born again," "new creation," and "born from above." Therefore, the phrase “born of water” would immediately tell a devout Jew like Nicodemus that Jesus was speaking of baptism. That is why everyone in the early church knew that being “born of water” was a reference to baptism. There was never any debate about it because it was always understood. Only in modern times did people get confused about the meaning of John 3:5 because its correct meaning interfered with their flawed soteriology.
     
  6. The American Dream

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    Despite our difference on this issue, I will say I do not know why anyone would come to salvation and not be baptized. And I also agree with you about the water not referring to physical birth. To me it refers to spiritual cleansing. So if baptism is required, what about the thief on the cross? Also, since baptism is required for salvation, I assume you reject sprinkling infants because there would be no connection between salvation and baptism. Even the Presbyterians who sprinkle infants do not believe baptism is required for salvation. I know the RCC and CoC does.

    Yes the early church fathers held to your view. As I said in the other post, the part that bothers me most about it is saying the thief on the cross came under he old covenant, and then saying someone at the same point in time came under the new covenant.

    We will just have to agree to disagree on this one, but thank you for the civil post.
     
  7. Rebel

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    I know that, and I am thankful for that.

    Edit: Well, I'll have to take that back after reading Robert William's post to DT.
     
    #47 Rebel, Feb 26, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 26, 2015
  8. Rebel

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    :laugh: :laugh:
     
  9. Rebel

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    I think one of the determining factors is how one sees the relationship between the Old and New Covenant. I think paedobaptists would believe that the New is somehow still connected to the Old or a continuation of it, whereas anti-paedobaptists believe the New is a break from the Old with different membership requirements. Perhaps that is an oversimplification, but I think it is at least partially true.
     
  10. Zenas

    Zenas Active Member

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    It seems that you have a problem with sprinkling or pouring, with baptizing babies and also with the matter of the thief on the cross.

    The word “baptism” comes from the Greek “baptizo,” which usually means to dip or submerge. But it doesn’t always mean that. For example Luke 11:38 reports that when Jesus went to eat at the house of a Pharisee, the Pharisee was astonished that He had not washed before the meal. For wash, it uses “baptizo.” Likewise in Mark 7:4 it speaks of cleansing before eating and the writer uses “baptizo.” So we see that “baptizo” can mean simply washing. The practice of sprinkling or pouring is also spoken of in the Didache, written about 60-80 A.D. “Concerning baptism, baptize in this manner: Having said all these things beforehand, baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit in living [running] water. If there is no living water, baptize in other water; and, if you are not able to use cold water, use warm. If you have neither, pour water three times upon the head in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." These were first generation Christians and they recognized the validity of pouring.

    As for infant baptism, it just depends on how you view it. If baptism is meant to be a public statement, you will probably oppose paedobaptism. However, it you believe it has salvific effect, you will baptize your babies for much the same reason that you vaccinate them for measles. Although there is no specific example of a baby being baptized in the N.T., we do see entire households being baptized on four different occasions. We may presume that these households contained infants.

    Also when we examine the scriptures on this topic we have to consider the context of the times. All Christian converts in the N.T. were learning of Christ for the first time. There are no examples of children born in a Christian home and maturing into Christian adults. Therefore, we have no N.T. model of how these children are assimilated into the church of their parents. So when we equate believer’s baptism with N.T. baptism, we are correct. Unfortunately however, the N.T. does not cover the matter of children born and raised by Christian parents. There is no guidance from scripture and we have to look to church tradition.

    As for the thief on the cross, we must remember that although Jesus gave us the sacraments, He is not subject to them. He had, and still does have, the power to make exceptions. Even today the Church recognizes the doctrine of baptism of desire wherein if a person desires to become a Christian but water baptism is not possible, he is saved because of his desire to be baptized.
     
  11. The American Dream

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    I certainly agree with the first paragraph. I have a definite problem with sprinkling infants, both mode and timing. I also have a problem with holding up the thief on the cross as a unique exception. You are correct also on the point that there is no example of infants being sprinkled. The flawed theory of a covenant relationship between the parent and child is another fairy tale. The sins of the father are the fathers and the sins of the son are the sons. The covenant relationship does not save until time for communicants class. Jesus Christ and only Jesus Christ saves, by grace through faith.

    What mode was Jesus Christ baptized by? That should put that to rest right there. It is all about Jesus Christ and us following His example. Was He sprinkled as an infant and various oils poured on his head?

    Maybe it is a desire to save on the water bill. But, I could take my pet cat up front, have it sprinkled, and the cat and infant have the same understanding of the Gospel.

    One statement is of your post jumps right out at me. He is saved by "his desire for baptism." No, he is saved by grace through faith. When we look to church "tradition for guidance" when not addressed in Scripture, which church would that be of the hundreds that exits, and in the time you are talking about, around a few centuries past Acts, there must of been several. So, which church are we talking about?

    The thief on the cross to me represents the fact salvation is by grace through faith only. One can say he was under the old covenant, but as I said before, in John 3:5, you are arguing the other side at an earlier point in time. You cannot have it both ways.

    It is the same concept as the Lords Supper. Christ instituted the Lords Supper "in remembrance of Him." It was a symbol of what He did on the cross, and the sacrifice He made with His body and blood. It is not a magic act where Christ returns either physically or spiritually and becomes part of he elements.
     
  12. Robert William

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    The Old is obsolete and is the opposite of the New.
    There is no link or transition of circumcision to baby sprinkling.

    Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

    Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
     
  13. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    As long as you presume they repented first.

    That is not very biblical at all. His desire had nothing to do with it. And you cannot know his desire, other than his recorded words.

    He was saved because Jesus saved him. His desires have nothing to do with it.
     
  14. Zenas

    Zenas Active Member

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    Well, it would be difficult for a 1-year old to repent of anything. I'm just saying that the New Testament has four (4) examples of entire households being baptized. Acts 10:48---household of Cornelius baptized by Peter; Acts 16:15--household of Lydia baptized by Paul; Acts 16:33--household of the Philippian jailer baptized by Paul; 1 Corinthians 1:16--household of Stephanas baptized by Paul. Not a single time did the writer say "entire household except children" or words to that effect. Of course it's possible that none of these houses had young children. It's also possible that there will not be a single highway fatality in Kentucky this year, but not very likely.

    Really what it boils down to is that if you think nothing happens during baptism but getting wet, than you see no point in baptizing infants. However, if you see that baptism is a modality of receiving grace like the Bible teaches, then you will baptize your babies. Since scripture teaches the latter, I think it is fair to say that young children in these households were indeed baptized.

    The desires of the good thief had everything to do with it, unless of course, you are one of those people who believe in irresistible grace. He may not have specifically desired baptism but we know by his words he desired to be saved. We also know that baptism before he died would have been impossible. (Well, we don't really know that. John was at the foot of the cross and for all we know John put a flask of water on a pole and poured it on his head. Far fetched? Yes, but not as far fetched as believing that no infants were baptized in four entire households.) Anyway, that is all that is required for baptism of desire: to have faith in Christ and to be so situated that baptism is impossible.
     
  15. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    "If you consider me a believer in the Lord". First, were they immersed or sprinkled ? I don't buy your argument that babies were baptized. Hoseholds back then probably had several families, brothers, sisters, uncles, whatever.
    I know several children who have professed a knowledge of salvation and have been baptized. I'm not arguing children. I'm arguing infants.
    I believe his sheep know his voice. Attach any tag you want to that.
    Again we have no idea what he desired, save to be remembered.
    No. The process is spelled out. Repentance, then baptism. We have no reason to believe Paul, Peter, Silas, Linus, or anyone ever violated that.
     
  16. Robert William

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    First of all, in the household accounts it mentions belief and repentance, that's something a baby can't do, so you will need to show other scriptures to back up your mouth.

    You say babies receive grace at baptism as if grace is manufactured by an act of man, when grace is unmerited favor from God towards the predestined elect.
     
  17. OldRegular

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    Would be helpful if you would at least reference those Scripture!

    ************************************************************************************************
     
  18. The American Dream

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    So are you going to have a blessed Lent? Only place I know to find lent is the dryer filter and belly button. I will tell you why there is no Scriptural reference, because there is no Scripture. There is nothing there to justify sprinkling, sprinkling infants, a mystical covenant relationship between parent and child, or the power of baptism to save. To me this issue is crystal clear. I can understand differences over end times and other things but not this. The Bible is very clear.
     
  19. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I have been removing lint from the dryer periodically all morning. You did leave out one place where lint collects, at the base of the spine, the hollow at the tail bone in SC language!

    Yes but it is such fun to ask!

    But I gather you have basically the same opinion of the Church of Rome that I have!

    **************************
     
  20. Robert William

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    Your Rcc says salvation IS by works, here is what your official Roman encyclopedia says.

    The Roman Catholic cult in their Catechism teaches that we can merit grace necessary for salvation and that eternal life is attained by faith, baptism
    Holy Spirit and , and keeping the commandments.
    1. CCC 2010, "...Moved by the by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life."
    2. CCC 2027, "Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods."
    3. CCC 2068, "The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."
    This obviously faulty teaching in the CCC is hugely problematic since it contradicts Scripture.
    1. Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
    2. Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
    3. Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
    4. Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
    5. Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
    6. Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
    We have to ask questions.
    1. Why is the RCC teaching that you attain salvation through observing the commandments when the Bible says we are saved apart from the works of the Law (Rom. 3:28-30; 4:5; Gal. 2:16)?
    2. Why would the Roman Catholic Church teach that you merit for yourself the grace needed for eternal life when that clearly contradicts Rom 11:6?
    There is a great deal wrong with what the RCC teaches. We must look to God's word and not to what the RCC says we must do to be saved. Our salvation is not merited by our keeping the commandments! The Roman Catholic Church needs to repent.
     
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