Featured What is first? Life or Faith?

This verse doesn't prove what you want it to. First of all, whenever John uses the substantival participial form of the verb "believe," he always (or almost always) uses it in the present tense with the meaning "he who believes," "he who continues to believe," or simply "a believer." Second, oops (!), the "is born" verb you're referring to is not aorist, but perfect, not that it matters. The sense is simply that all who believe have been born of God, without any reference to the time of being born again in relation to the time of believing. Without any additional language, the actual time of believer's "regeneration" is irrelevant to the author's point, only that those who are believers have been born of God (and still are), whether they were born (again) before or after the point their saving belief began. But other passages like John 1:12 are very clear, that God gave the power to be born again (or to be born of God, 1:13) to those who believe (=receive Jesus), NOT that God gave the power to believe to those who are born again. And thus believing -- in a very clear passage -- precedes (both grammatically and logically) being born again.

 

Again, we are not talking about the believer's experience, but the natural man. There is no confusion on positional and progressive sanctification or justification. Both are irrelevant to the natural man until they actually take place, at which time we begin a discussion about the progressive nature of salvation.

Fair enough, but it seems to me to hint at repentance from the Gospel, rather than from the Gospel.

And unless you want to say that the Gentiles, races, and genders and classes of people are all saved then my point stands.

Let me ask you...were you saved apart from the Ministry of the Holy Spirit, the Comforter?


Was there something in your natural ability that allowed you to understand the spiritual things of God, namely the Gospel?

It absolutely does:


1 Corinthians 2:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.


1 Corinthians 2:14

King James Version (KJV)

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.



Ephesians 3

King James Version (KJV)

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;



1 Peter 1

King James Version (KJV)

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.


9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


Galatians 3

King James Version (KJV)

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?



2 Thessalonians 2:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:



Hebrews 10:29

King James Version (KJV)

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?



I would also point out that in the letters to the Churches, the call to overcome (be saved) comes from...the Spirit of God, Who also speaks here:


Revelation 22:17

King James Version (KJV)

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


While the Spirit, the Comforter, works through the Church (believers), He is not dependent upon us as we are of Him. He can bring about godly sorrow which works repentance without our help. He is the Helper, not we.

No man is saved apart from the Spirit of God revealing that which in his natural condition he is blind to, namely the truth concerning his condition, the remedy...the Gospel.

Actually you do not, because the natural man, though he can put on a good show of knowledge of spiritual things...cannot receive the spiritual things of God. Only in a state of enlightenment for the purpose of salvation do we see the natural man comprehend. He then responds one of two ways: receiving or rejecting. Neither are set and determined responses unless that individual dies in the state of rejection, though there is a line in which rejecters cross in which God will refrain from speaking to their hearts. It is not God subjecting them to eternal separation, it is a withdrawal of the opportunity to be saved.


Continued...

 

That is exactly correct and applies to all that are natural.

This implies men saving themselves, rationalizing the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Doesn't work that way.

The natural man remains blind to the Truth and cannot within his own abilities put the mystery (not the puzzle) together. They could not do this prior to the Comforter's coming nor can they do it now that He has come for this purpose.

The Gospel is not something the natural man pieces together. It must be revealed. That is how revelation has always worked. God initiates revelation always.

Note they cry out to God to turn them.

We can liken the new birth to physical birth, both of which we play no role whatsoever in. We did not arrange the circumstances of our physical birth, nor do we arrange the circumstances of regeneration.

We experience both, but that does not mean we played a part.

Agree for the most part, but there can be an internal struggle before one turn to Christ in positive response to the Comforter's Ministry. This would be that middle ground you deny. The natural man has been shown the truth, believes it, and may have even repented, but until he or she actually turns to Christ in faith they remain natural.

Agree wholeheartedly.

I agree with the first statement, that is certainly true, however when the Comforter ministers to people the response may not be immediate.

This is illustrated by God's withdrawal of opportunity to those who would not receive the Gospel:


2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

King James Version (KJV)

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


For not to obey the Gospel they must have heard it. Implied by the fact that natural men are blind to the truth Someone has to show it to them. That Someone is the Comforter.

I have presented verses to this effect before with no response but if you want to follow it further let me know.

And before submission is possible one must know what they submit to, which is their condition and the remedy. Sin (because they are unbelievers), righteousness (that they are not and only Christ is), and judgment (the fear of Hell, eternal separation...is a good motivator).

That there is a middle ground in the sense of final eternal destiny is a basic principle of Scripture which motivates us, you and me...to witness. Those being ministered to may be in that middle ground and while someone may be destined to be saved the question is...when? That men can struggle against God is something we see throughout Scripture.

I think Paul is a good example of the middle-ground subject:


Acts 9:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.


In His conversion we see the Lord ministering to him.

The Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is "doing despite unto the Spirit of Grace," for which there is more severe punishment than that which will be received by those who rejected "Moses Law," or, the First Covenant (Covenant of Law).

The revealing ministry of the Spirit of God runs throughout Scripture, it is the nature of revelation itself that we have to distinguish from Age to Age:


Acts 7:51

King James Version (KJV)

51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.



No man can claim Christ is his Lord apart from he Holy Spirit:


1 Corinthians 12:3

King James Version (KJV)

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.


The Ministry of the Spirit of God to the hearts of men, again, runs throughout the history of the Bible. The neglect of how God ministers to men has caused many to overlook the significance of the Coming of the Comforter and the specific ministry of revealing the Gospel to men.

Repentance leads to regeneration, not the other way around. When we are born again we do not dwell in a state of repentance but are filled with the joy of our salvation, which is why I mentioned that repentance does not end with positional sanctification. It is part of progressive sanctification, for as we become aware of the sin in our lives repentance leads to the removal of that sin. But we cannot know anything, whether believer or natural, until God shows it to us. He does not inundate a new believer with their sins all at once but even as we raise up children there is a gradual instruction according to the ability of the believer.


God bless.

 

Yes I see that, lol. The last should have said by the Gospel.


"Fair enough, but it seems to me to hint at repentance from the Gospel, rather than by the Gospel."

Yet the primary point is that they are unbelieving and the Comforter is ministering to them.

While elect they are not born again when they come under the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit. Certainly He ministers to all the families of the earth.

The Elect are natural until they are born again. That is the focus.

That is not what this...


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;




And by your own testimony you acknowledge that the unbelieving here represent all families of the earth.

We are born separated from God and the Life of God, which is eternal. There is only one remedy and that is through faith in Christ, and specifically His death, burial, and resurrection.


John 6:53

King James Version (KJV)

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

The analogy is addressed in detail so it would be necessary to address the response to affirm the charge of not comprehending what was said.

Not at all. What I am saying is that the natural man, though he can have a basic understanding of the concepts, cannot fully fathom the Word of God unto salvation apart from God revealing it as truth to him or her.

That is just a basic Bible Truth. If you want to present a case that natural man, in opposition of the teaching of Scripture, can receive and understand the spiritual things of God, then by all means...do so.

The question I have to ask is why one would want to do that. I can understand the Arminian doing so because it is a root belief of their particular system of theology (though few present a historical Arminian view and more present a cruder version).

If you believe that God has given the natural man this ability then this falls in with an Arminian view regardless of when God gave the natural man this ability.

That is because in order to understand the spiritual things of God one must either have it revealed to them (such as Peter's confession of Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God) or they must be united with the Spirit of God directly.

Prior to that men are dead spiritually and without union with God. Salvation restores the union lost between man and God and the indwelling is the direct cause of the new birth and everything associated with it. We have a new heart and spirit because the Spirit of God impacts our very being.

Paul makes it clear:


Titus 3:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;



We are saved specifically by the washing of regeneration (new birth, and cleansing as stated in Ezekiel 36:25) and the renewing of the Holy Ghost. Focus on that renewing: did we have the Holy Ghost prior to conversion? No, it was lost in the Fall.


The natural man cannot receive nor understand the spiritual things of God, that is not up for debate.

That is correct, because they are dead and without ability to understand. It must be revealed to them.

The argument offered does not correspond to this statement:

And it is necessary that one understand the Gospel to be saved. That is the only way one can believe what is revealed, repent of their sins. believe that Christ died in their stead, and place their faith in Him. That is precisely what Christ meant here:


John 6:49-55

King James Version (KJV)

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.


God bless.

 

And this I can agree with.

Hope you and everyone have a great day and a blessed Lord's Day tomorrow.


God bless.

 

I believe that is your assumption. In the previous verses (1-13), Jesus left no instruction manual for Nicodemus. He is not told "how to be born again," simply that he must be born again. In fact, that statement is emphasized three different times. Finally, in verse 14, he goes to an OT example where he clearly demonstrates what Nicodemus must do.

Salvation is very simple. Do you think Nicodemus would have had a grasp of all of these theological terms? Not a chance!
Secondly, salvation is an event, not a process. You are describing it as a process. I believe that is serious biblical error. The things you describe above, apart from hearing the gospel, all take place at the same time, which makes most of which you say moot. Salvation is event and regeneration, justification, sanctification, etc. all take place the moment one puts their faith in Christ. You are simply describing the ordo salutis which any Bible Encyclopedia will tell you is different depending on your theological position. You lean toward a Calvinistic position and therefore put regeneration first. I don't. Yet salvation is still an event and not a process.

There is no argument that we are justified by faith (Rom.5:1)
We are saved by faith (John 3:16), which is at the end of a discussion about regeneration. Faith is the key to our salvation. Justification and regeneration take place simultaneously.

That doesn't mean Nicodemus understood it.
CONTEXT:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
--The only kingdom that Nicodemus would have been thinking about was that physical kingdom described by the prophets of the OT, the same kingdom inquired of by Christ's disciples in Acts 1:

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

It is not wrong. The gospel always comes first, and in fact, must come first.
It is necessary for one to be born again through the Word of God.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
--Without the gospel there is no new birth. That is made clear by Peter.

1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
--Where does faith come from? It comes from the Word God. These things are stated clearly in God's Word. They cannot be refuted.

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
--Note: The gospel was first declared unto them, and they received it.
It was that gospel by which they were saved.
Then Paul goes on in verses 3 and 4 and tells us very plainly to tell us what that gospel is. It is the gospel by which we are saved (which includes regeneration).

This internal creative work of God you speak of may refer to the ministry of the Holy Spirit in convicting a sinner of sin, but that is all. The ministry of the Holy Spirit is described here:
Joh 16:8-11
(8) And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
(9) Of sin, because they believe not on me;
(10) Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
(11) Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
--That is the present ministry of the Holy Spirit.
We come as sinners to Christ. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, but does not regenerate until by faith we put our trust in Christ.

That is what I already said to you.

I don't disagree with that. That is what salvation is all about.
Repentance and faith go together. The result is both regeneration and salvation which all happen at the same time. No need to slice and dice everything all up. It is an event not a process.
Would you ever tell an unsaved person this is what is going to happen to you first; be ready for it: regeneration is going to hit you first, then bang justification is going follow right after, then beware of that sanctification, it follows fast on its heels. Really?
It is an event.
Nicodemus wasn't a saved person. When he believed (vss.14 ff. then regeneration, etc.) happened. But the truth is, the Bible gives no indication of when he became a believer or was regenerated.

 

For your consideration:

Just as you say...

...salvation was intended for the world as a whole, defined as "all families of the earth" to Abraham. The Abrahamic Covenant looked forward to the work God would do when He established the New Covenant, which the Abrahamic Covenant was foundational to, rather than a completely disassociated Covenant. Only the Covenant of Law could be said to stand alone as a Covenant (and if demanded, the Levitical Covenant, though that is part and parcel with the (Covenant of) Law.

Paul makes it very clear that God has provided revelation to the world, but, Israel stands in special regard because they are a created people meant for relationship with Him (howbeit this relationship is temporal in nature, primarily). Secondly, they stand out because it was to them that God gave His Word:


Romans 3

King James Version (KJV)

1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.


This does not exclude those outside of Israel from the relationship available to men at that time. In fact, Paul makes it clear that there is no respect of persons and this is further illustrated by God's perspective concerning Gentiles who had not been exposed to the Word of God yet obeyed the internal witness given them by God, a witness given to...the world:


Romans 2:11-15

King James Version (KJV)


11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another


Paul has already mentioned this:


Romans 1:18-20

King James Version (KJV)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


Clearly men had respect of God before Israel was created. Clearly Israel was not the first people to benefit from the grace of God and receive the salvation available to men in those days. Clearly God has revealed Himself to all men without regard to Nationality.

But what has to be considered is the responsibility Israel had because...they had been given the Word of God.

Just as James states...


James 3:1

King James Version (KJV)

3 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.


...and the writer of Hebrews rebukes...


Hebrews 5:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.


...those to whom God has given His Word to will be held to a higher standard.

Such is the case with Israel. She was not the only people being "saved" (in the Old Testament sense), but was held to a higher standard because she had been entrusted with the Word of God, and like the Church today, was expected to adhere and obey the Word given them. And this was advantageous to the Jew, and was a source of both conviction and comfort. The Word of God has always been a two-edged sword.

The "world" in view is the same world God sent His Son to. It does not exclude anyone.

Israel trusted her heritage, believing themselves to be of "The Vine" planted by God, but Christ would reveal the True Vine. Being part of Israel was to be under the umbrella of God's provision, yet that changed when Christ came to establish the true source of relationship with God which differed distinctly from that enjoyed by men, whether Jew or Gentile. To be a "Jew" spiritually (rather than externally, going through the motions, Paul being perhaps the greatest example) was to be in obedience to the Word of God (and all that entails), which Paul clarifies was possible for both Jew and Gentile.


Continued...

 

Not at all. While Israel had the advantage of specific revelation, the Word of God, the internal witness given to men allowed Gentiles to obey the Law written in their hearts.

Relationship with God is always centered around obedience. Take a Pharaoh that was upset about Abraham's deceit concerning his wife. For that matter, consider Abraham, a Gentile, called the friend of God.

The Creation of Israel did not create an exclusion from relationship with God, but, Israel was at an advantage due to specific revelation. It could be said, perhaps, they were at a disadvantage from one perspective, in that they were held to that higher standard due to the knowledge they received from God.

We have to keep this in a proper context: Jews did not save anyone.

"Salvation is of the Jews" because it was through Israel that God intended to bring the Seed. Israel considered themselves to be the Seed, not understanding that Christ has always been the source of salvation that was to come.

Look at the statement:

What is the reason they "knew?"

Because the Word of God had been given them. With specific revelation they did not have to fall into the error of idolatry. They were told Who they worshipped, and how they were to worship.

I agree there was a transitional period in which Gentile Inclusion (as opposed to the exclusive and rejecting attitude of many Jews) was clarified, but, that Inclusion is rooted in the Abrahamic Covenant, as well as, from a spiritual and eternal perspective, reaching all the way back into the Garden, where the true enemy, Satan, is told he will be defeated by the Seed.

Cornelius sets the perfect example of Gentile Inclusion in the Old Testament standard.

They also believed it unlawful to work on the Sabbath, however, their interpretation of the Law was not accompanied by the heart of God. A rigid interpretation did not leave room for...common sense. This denotes the external quality of the "religion" of many Jews, who would put up a proper front in keeping the Law, but would likely rescue his animal from a ditch without second thought.

And we have to consider the exclusivity of the Jewish leaders. Paul confronted Peter for playing the hypocrite, withdrawing from Gentiles he fellowshipped with until that certain came from Jerusalem. Paul has much to say about those who tried to strangle the Gospel with the Law. The Jerusalem Council had to cede to Paul's argument concerning the Gentiles, both in regard to inclusion to the Church as well as in regard to the Law.

We see here...


Acts 21:23-26

King James Version (KJV)

23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.


...that Paul is instructed to prove to the Jews that he did not teach against the Law, and within this rite we see an offering being made. Consider that carefully. I am tempted to speculate Paul makes a grievous error here. I am not dogmatic about that, but, at the least we can see that the Law was to great extent still in force among the Jerusalem leadership.

Let's back up and see who is named as making this request of Paul:


Acts 21:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.


Let's back up a little further and see the event prophesied about:


Acts 21:10-11

King James Version (KJV)

10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.

11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.


The question I would ask is...which Jews bound Paul? The leadership? Or the mob?

The point would be that Paul stood in opposition to the Gentiles being bound by the Law, but was compliant in carrying out a service within the Law. This could be interpreted as Israel maintain their heritage in the Law, but, I believe when that heritage exceeds the Gospel there is going to be consequences, and for Paul there certainly was. The Jerusalem leadership forced Paul to prove he was not out to destroy the Law, which indicates to me the close relationship they gave between Christianity and the Law which set up an exclusive party within Christianity...which is contrary to the Gospel. While separation remained for the Gentile Proselyte under the Law, God has never been a respecter of persons.

The primary necessity for man was to obey that revealed to them by God, and this was accomplished by both Jew and Gentile, both held to the standard of the revelation provided for them.

The Lord was not being exclusive when He used the term "world."

And when we look at the result of the Gospel we are forced to recognize that "the world" means...the world.

All families of the earth, even as redemptive prophecy foretold.

You had to become a "Jew" in God's mindset, lol. The problem is whose definition of "Jew" one would take. A spiritual Jew was simply one who obeyed God, and specifically...the revelation provided them.

Israel was not a mistake or a blunder on God's part. Those who were obedient fulfilled the demand of God in the relationship that was established.

The mistake of Israel was their view that being born into that relationship was good enough. That's all it took.

It means the same thing meant in John 3:16.

God did not send His Son to certain people, but to the world. Not the world system, but the world. Again, Redemptive Prophecy points to salvation provided to all families of the earth. The defeat and destruction of Satan's power benefits...the world.

No-one will stand before God and state "But you didn't tell me!" Because God has revealed Himself to everyone, and while certain revelation is more specific than other, that leaves all...


Romans 1:19-20

King James Version (KJV)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Everyone who stands before God at the Great White Throne will be justly condemned, because they had been provided with some form of revelation by which they could have acknowledged God and fallen under obedience to that revelation.

God has never failed to speak to the first person who has been born into this world. The particular revelation given to any given individual will create the particular standard of obligation and responsibility to God, and it is that standard they will be judged by. The Old Testament Saint will not be judged according to the New Testament Saint that has a higher amount of revelation afforded them. The rejecter of the Old Testament Saint will fare better than the rejecter of revealed Gospel of Jesus Christ.

God bless.

 

And I would just add that placing...


Romans 9:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.


...in an individual context, rather than a national context...is a mistake.

I take the position that rather than God being viewed as a respecter of persons in regards to Jacob and Esau as individuals, in view is the Lord distinguishing between Israel and Edom on a national basis. This and the following two chapters can be seen as an address on a national basis rather than individual, and I see no reason to make the exception with this particularly abused quote, which violates God's character.


God bless.

 

I too am not advocating a universalism, but what I was agreeing to in you post is the following:

I am not implying a Universal application that suggests salvation is afforded to every individual born, only noting that the opportunity for Salvation through Christ is applicable to the world as a whole.

I might add that my position is that salvation is freely available to all.

 

I would agree with this for the most part but one of the things that I feel needs to be clarified in salvation is that while salvation is available to all that opportunity is entirely at the discretion of God in regards to timing.

Unlike a typical Armenian view where men have within their nature the ability to comprehend spiritual things of God, I take the view that it is not until the Ministering of the Comforter that the natural man is enlightened to the point that he can believe, repent, and turn to Christ in faith. I agree this is not only free to all but that all will come under enlightening to some extent or the other within their lifetime, meaning no man will be held without fault for actively rejecting the revelation God provides.

The distinction to make, though, is that we maintain a position that men are not born having a capacity to understand the spiritual things of God, particularly in regards to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. All men can be obedient to the internal witness God places within them, or that seen in Creation, but an understanding of the Gospel of Christ is tied so closely to the Comforter's Ministry that apart from that Ministry men remain without understanding on a salvific level.

The opportunity is universal in the sense that it is available where-so-ever the Gospel is preached and the Comforter ministers.

Another aspect I feel is important is distinguishing only those born again as "Christians." While those obedient to God's witness can escape eternal separation from God because of obedience to that revealed to them, that does not mean that this makes them "Christian." This does not mean they are born again. While I would not exclude such a possibility outside of the framework of God's power and grace, I think it unlikely myself. The New Birth is reliant upon the specific revelation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is ministered by the Comforter.

We do not see new birth and indwelling in the New Covenant sense as attainable by any other way.


God bless.