1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Calvin: God is the Author of Sin

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Agent47, Jan 10, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 4 of 12
  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    othe company
    How about his one? Seems pretty sure on it!
    Calvin writes: “First, it must be observed that the will of God is the cause of all things that happen in the world; and yet God is not the author of evil.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.169, emphasis mine)
     
    #61 Yeshua1, Jan 11, 2017
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There seems to be a paradox in area of God soveregnity/a free will, correct?
     
    #62 Yeshua1, Jan 11, 2017
  3. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,817
    Likes Received:
    2,106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Correct.
    Not quite true as a glance at Genesis 22:2 will confirm. Look at the Jeremiah text again and try to understand it
    Correct.
    Not so. God's decree is universal (Daniel 4:34-35; Romans 8:28; Romans 11:26; Ephesians 1:11).
    It covers good and evil events (Isaiah 45:7; Amos 3:6; Job 1:21; Jeremiah 15:2).
    It covers the sinful acts of men (Genesis 50:20; 2 Samuel 16:10-11; Luke 22:22; Acts 2:23 and of course Acts 4:27-28).
    It covers the free acts of men (Proverbs 16:1, 9: Proverbs 19:21; Proverbs 21:1; Romans 8:28, 35-39).
    It covers chance occurrences (1 Kings 22:28-34; Job 5:6; Job 36:32; Proverbs 16:33; Jonah 1:7).
    It covers all details of our lives (Job 14:5; Psalm 139:16; Matthew 10:29-30; James 4:15).

    Please especially read Isaiah 14:24-27 and Isaiah 46:10-11.
     
    #63 Martin Marprelate, Jan 11, 2017
  4. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    1,492
    Likes Received:
    18
    Isn't is lunacy to claim ALL is not ALL?

    Please quote Calvin, not books about him. Ever read this book in the first place?

    Wrong.
     
    #64 Agent47, Jan 11, 2017
  5. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    1,492
    Likes Received:
    18
    What is a decree with reference to God?

    'God decreed'....Exactly what did God do?

    Explain without any scriptures for now and perhaps we will get somewhere
     
    #65 Agent47, Jan 11, 2017
  6. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    1,492
    Likes Received:
    18
    Another quote

    By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man....some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. Inst 21:5
    https://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.v.xxii.html

    This quote is not necessarily calling God Author of Sin but it describes predestination as accomplished by eternal decree.

    What is eternal decree
     
    #66 Agent47, Jan 11, 2017
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Not really, as God is the One who is free to determine and also to allow all things to happen, as per His plans/purposes, and yet never hs he sinned, nor tempted othrs to sin!

    And there is no oparadox between God will andours ONLY if you take , wich Calvin di, that God alone has true free will!
     
    #67 Yeshua1, Jan 11, 2017
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The determiniative Will of God, hat whic He directly ordained to happen
     
    #68 Yeshua1, Jan 11, 2017
  9. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    1,492
    Likes Received:
    18
    You haven't read a book and you are plucking quotes from it?

    Are you tickled by ignorance?
     
    #69 Agent47, Jan 11, 2017
  10. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    1,492
    Likes Received:
    18
    How many types of Will does God have?
    Define them
    Are they all certain/sure?

    What particular brand of God's will was at play in the Fall of man at Eden?
     
    #70 Agent47, Jan 11, 2017
  11. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Calvin quote you cited has absolutely nothing to do with your false charge of God being the Author of sin. It is dealing with God's eternal decree.
     
    #71 Rippon, Jan 11, 2017
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Did I state have not read it?
    And those quotes are from Calvin , correct?
     
    #72 Yeshua1, Jan 11, 2017
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    God hs His determined Will, as he is thedirect cause
    He has his permissive will, as he allows for indirect/secondary causes
     
    #73 Yeshua1, Jan 11, 2017
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Exactly, it has all to do with what God determined what would happn to saved/lost, not even discussing sin and its cause!
     
    #74 Yeshua1, Jan 11, 2017
  15. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,817
    Likes Received:
    2,106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I think your greatest need is actually to read some Scripture, rather than rooting about in Calvin trying to prove things you don't even understand. Read some of those Scripture links I posted and you may get a clue as to what God's decree is, or failing that, have a look at Luke 2:1 to see an example of a decree.
     
    #75 Martin Marprelate, Jan 11, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    1,492
    Likes Received:
    18
    I said as much. Why do you post before reading?

    What is 'eternal decree since you used the term?
     
    #76 Agent47, Jan 11, 2017
  17. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    1,492
    Likes Received:
    18
    Which of these brands was operative in Eden as Adam fell?
     
    #77 Agent47, Jan 11, 2017
  18. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    1,492
    Likes Received:
    18
    You are better founded in scriptures than me ok.
    What is an eternal decree?


    Looks like everyone loves throwing this vocabulary around while totally ignorant of its meaning
     
    #78 Agent47, Jan 11, 2017
  19. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    1,492
    Likes Received:
    18
    What is eternal decree?
     
    #79 Agent47, Jan 11, 2017
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,458
    Likes Received:
    3,563
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Well, not speaking for Calvin, yes. But you won’t like it.

    I believe that we, by necessity, speak of God as having a “will” as if God were human. Given the present conversation, we are speaking as if God were sitting in the drawing room planning exactly how he would accomplish redemption. Did God plan the Fall? Did God decree the Fall (Calvinism) or Ordain the Fall (Arminianism)? We picture God at his desk planning out redemption…Judas will betray his Son, this he let people know long before it happen (even the price of betrayal)…but does this mean that Judas had a choice?

    I believe this anthropomorphic. God does have a will, but God’s will is not our will. God decreed the Fall, that it would happen because this is the purpose God created man – for his own glory. And Adam ate of the fruit of his own free will. God decreed that Judas would betray Jesus. And Judas betrayed Jesus of his own free will. God decreed the Cross. And the Jews crucified Jesus of their own free will. But in all of this (the Fall, Judas’ betrayal, Jesus’ crucifixion) God did not author evil because God’s intent and motivation was his own glory and that through the redemption of man whereby men become brethren with God and children of the Father. The evil originated from within the men, as was the inclination of their nature.

    Awwww. Long ago, in a galaxy far, far away I graduated seminary and was encouraged by my professor to continue post-graduate studies in Church History. I always regretted not making that happen…but it was impossible at the time.

    Servetus was a more interesting topic ...just not the one at hand, and since you said "please"....:)
     
    #80 JonC, Jan 11, 2017
Page 4 of 12
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...