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Featured Revisiting Isaiah 7:14

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Deacon, Apr 17, 2017.

  1. reformed_baptist

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    So, in your estimation, my comments about motives that some theistic evolutionists might possibly be biased towards reading things in a certain way is not acceptable, but your suspicion that translators are catering to the public is acceptable - I'm sorry sir, but that smacks of double of standards in my opinion ;)
     
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  2. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    So do you feel that there was not an initial fulfilment in Isaiah's day, or is there a "virgin" birth that took place in Isaiahs day?

    Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk
     
  3. reformed_baptist

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    I don't rule out an initial fulfillment in Isaiah's day (most probably his own son, Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz) but in the light of the NT I don't see it as terribly important either way, Matt 1:23 guides us as to the primary prophecy of this text and I think that is where our focus should lay - any speculation beyond that, is just speculation! if there was a fulfillment in Isaiah day that is not clearly recorded in scripture.
     
  4. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    Right, related, though Walton gives the impression it is 'almah when he says, "Isa 54:4 demonstrates that an 'alma could be married and barren." I don't think that is a "that follows" conclusion, and that Walton may be exhibiting what D. A. Carson calls the "root fallacy".

    I can live with that suspicion. The proliferation of Bibles in our modern era demonstrates that there is some "catering to the public" (and perhaps the bottom line, as well) going on. With that suspicion, though, we have to take the suspicion on the other side of the coin -- that some translators and commentators are catering to something else (for example, liberal scholarship). I see no reason to suspect all catering is one-sided.

    It is interesting to go back to the earliest English Bibles. I haven't checked every one, but the 1395 Wycliffe Bible, 1535 Coverdale, 1541 Great Bible, 1568 Bishops Bible and 1560 Geneva Bible consistently render it "the/a virgin shall conceive and bear a son" (spelling modernized). There may be issues to bring up re their translations, but probably not the modern concept of catering to the public.

    While we can say that there is not "a word" to distinguish ‘almâ in English (with which I don't agree), those who don't think there is "a word" would be free to translate it with several words that express it correctly as they see it, such as "unmarried young woman" or something like that.

    Agreed, and I did not mean to suggest you were disputing that. Just putting clearly on the table where I'm coming from.

    Thanks for quoting Motyer. I had thought about doing so, but didn't seem to have the energy to type it up! I will add a brief statement from page 85. "...wherever the context [in the Bible, rlv] allows a judgment, ‘almâ is not a general term meaning 'young woman' but a specific one meaning 'virgin'."

    This pretty well sums it up for me as well. There seems there should be/could be a fulfillment of some kind in Isaiah's day, but the primary interpretation of the text is fixed by the New Testament.
     
  5. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    Charles Feinberg has also commanded my deep respect
    He too has written on this passage, with the same conclusion.

    THE VIRGIN BIRTH AND ISAIAH 7:14 [LInk]

    Abstract:

    Isaiah 7:14 continues to be one of the most debated texts in the Bible. After surveying various scholarly opinions, two key Hebrew words, ʻalmâ (young woman) and betûlâ (maiden) are discussed as to the immediate historical and prophetic intent of Isaiah. After also consulting the LXX version and Matthew’s use (1:23) of Isaiah 7:14, it is concluded that the passage is a signal and explicit prediction of the miraculous conception and nativity of Jesus Christ.​

    Rob
     
  6. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    I have always struggled with an initial fulfillment here. I have spent many of hours trying to fit it together. Let me run this past you guys and gals. Is it possible that God was not speaking of a sign that Ahaz would see. Ahaz refuses to ask for a sign. God(v.13) then addresses the house of David. So is it possible that God was never speaking of a sign to Ahaz personally and was only speaking of a future sign.

    Either way with "alma", Isaiah's wide would not qualify either as a young woman, maiden, nor virgin. Hezekiah has never seemed a good fit either.

    I also have an issue with the idea of God making a prophecy and us not see the fulfillment that came from it. One could then argue perhaps it was unfulfilled. It seems the best way to go is with a single fulfillment(Mary/Jesus).

    If someone brought this up already I apologize. I have not read the entire thread thoroughly. I just skimmed it and possible I missed it.

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  7. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    Isaiah changes from singular to plural, which can be noted with the "thee" and "you" in the KJV.

    11 Ask thee a sign of the Lord thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.
    13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
    14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

    There are different opinions of the meaning of the change in number, but the change is there. I take it as the sign of the virgin being a future sign to the whole house of David and not to Ahaz.

    Haven't looked at the timeline recently, but I think a study of it will suggest Hezekiah was already born at the time the prophecy was given.
     
  8. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    A great site to see the singular and plural 'you'se' is the Ya'll Version [LINK]

    Isaiah 7:10-14 NASB Ya’ll Version

    Then the Lord spoke again to Ahaz, saying, “Ask a sign for yourself from the Lord your God; make the request deep or high make it deep as Sheol or high as heaven.” But Ahaz said, “I will not ask, nor will I test the Lord!” Then he said, “Listen now, O house of David! Is it too slight a thing for y’all to try the patience of men, that y’all will try the patience of my God as well? Therefore the Lord Himself will give y’all a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.​

    Rob
     
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  9. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    I began this tread since I’d been studying the passage in preparation to teaching Matthew in the Adult Bible Study at our church in the not-so-distant future.

    This is a basic outline of my conclusions regarding the fulfillment passages in chapter 1 and 2 of Matthew.

    Concerning the first prophecy, that of Isaiah 7:14 found in Matthew 1:23:

    • Since the problem presented in Isaiah concerned an immediate threat, the fulfillment (IMO) should concern its resolution
    • The Lord demanded a faith commitment from the House of David (plural); ‘if you don’t amen, you will not be amen’ed’ (7:9)
    • Chapter 7’s oracle reveals the Lord’s judgement upon Judah’s enemies and a promise of peace (God with us)
    • Chapter 8’s oracle reveals the Lord’s judgement upon a faithless Judah (vs 5-8)
    • In the same way God offered salvation to the House of David in Ahaz’ time, so he offered in Jesus time, through faith.
    • The five OT prophecies that Matthew uses don’t always appear to be prophecies. A scholar today using scripture this way would be accused of mishandling the word of God.
    • But each of the five OT prophecies that Matthew uses have themes of faith and deal in some way with exile and restoration.
    • Ultimately we see the offer of salvation fulfilled through faith fulfilled in Jesus Christ.
    Rob
     
  10. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    Which five prophecies are you referencing here? I realize one is Isaiah 7:14 and I think I remember your mentioning "Out of Egypt called my son" elsewhere. What are the others?

    Thanks.
     
  11. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    Working outline of Matthew

    1. Introduction - Matthew 1:1
    a. Generations – reminds Jews of heritage, beginnings
    b. Children of Abraham and of David’s kingdom​

    2. Genealogies
    a. Observations: What things stand out?
    i. Women mentioned (#5 – repeated special number)
    ii. The number 14 is emphasized. Hebrew Gematria (David is written as daleth vav daleth = 4+6+4=14) Jesus is the successor to David’s throne​

    3. Outline of Matthew
    a. Five sections of narrative followed by discourse (Why would Matthew use the number five? - 5 books of Moses)
    Preparation and Program of Ministry (Matt 3–7)
    Authority of Jesus Established (Matt 8–10)
    The Kingdom and Its Coming (Matt 11–13)
    Life in the New Community (Matt 14–18)
    Consummation of the Age (Matt 19–25)​
    b. Who was the greatest leader/prophet of Israel? Deuteronomy 18:14-16 (>>New Moses)​

    4. How does Matthew prove that Jesus was the New Moses?
    a. Five key scripture parallels, Matthew calls them prophecies
    Fulfillment #1 Virgin birth (Isa 7:14; Matt 1:22–23)
    Fulfillment #2 Born in Bethlehem (Mic 5:2; Matt 2:5–6)
    Fulfillment #3 Out of Egypt (Hos 11:1; Matt 2:15)
    Fulfillment #4 Weeping Over “Children” (Jer 31:15; Matt 2:17–18)
    Fulfillment #5 The “Nazarene” (Isa 11:1?; Judg 13:5?; Matt 2:23)
    Craig A. Evans, NT314 Book Study: The Gospel of Matthew in Its Jewish Context, Logos Mobile Education (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2014).​
     
    #31 Deacon, Apr 21, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
  12. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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  13. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    From looking at your outline you seem to be leaning toward what some scholars have described as a midrashic exegesis of the text as opposed to the traditional conservative grammatical-historical approach.

    Martin Pickup has explored this theme (Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society, June 2008, http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/51/51-2/JETS 51-2 353-381 Pickup.pdf) and contended that the exegetical framework used by the writers of the New Testament would have been readily understood by contemporaries.

    Michael Heiser has explicated something similar, but in less academic terms, at Were New Testament Writers Hermeneutical Hacks? | Dr. Michael Heiser.

    Specifically referring to Hosea 11:11 ("out of Egypt I called my son"), Heiser contends that Matthew knew full well that the text was not strictly a prophecy in context.

    Sorry the post is so long, but I think it sheds some light on the use of almah vs. parthenos and why the NT writer felt free to specify parthenos, among other things.

    (BTW: Walton's comment that parthenos doesn't necessarily mean virgin in classical Greek seems to me almost irrelevant since the LXX wasn't written in classical Greek. IMHO.)
     
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  14. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    In a post a while back I called myself an 'awkward inerrantist', chiefly due to what you've noted.
    I've been following Michael Heiser from the beginning of his blogs on Biblical Inerrancy.
    There are some issues that the Chicago Statement of Biblical Inerrancy did not address.
    Michael Heiser and Peter Enns are highly educated scholars and have been able to separate themselves from denominational pressures enough (each in their own unique way) to confront these issues directly. They write in a clear enough manner that an modestly educated person can follow their reasoning.

    Rob
     
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