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Featured Election, Predestination and Scripture

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Van, Apr 21, 2017.

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  1. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    When God chose before the foundation of the world, what conditions were we required to meet at that time. If you have scripture that lays out the conditions God required from us before the foundations of the world had been established, I would love to read them.
    Before the foundations of the world...did God sit down with Van and have a conversation saying..."I am going to choose you, but...you have to do these works on your own before I choose you."? Will he say "I lied about choosing you. You didn't do all the things I required from you so now I won't choose you."? "By the way, that's my final choice. Sorry for waffling." Is that how the conditional election works,
     
    #61 MennoSota, Apr 26, 2017
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  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Ephesians 1:4 refers to the corporate election of those the Redeemer would redeem. No individuals were chosen at that time. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 precludes individual election from the beginning unless conditioned on faith in the truth.
    Did I say our election was based on works? Nope - so another charge to change the subject.
    Did I say God did not tell the truth? Nope - so another charge to change the subject.

    See a pattern folks?

    God chose individuals for salvation from the beginning through the sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth, thus a conditional election. We lived without mercy before becoming a chosen people. Thus our individual election for salvation occurs during our lifetime, 1 Peter 2:9-10. God chose us as individuals poor to the world, rich in faith, and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God, James 2:5.

    Unconditional Election is fake theology
     
    #62 Van, Apr 27, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2017
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  3. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Yet you can't tell us what condition you met that required God to save you.
     
    #63 TCassidy, Apr 27, 2017
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  4. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    "meeting a condition" is not accurately stating what the OP said.

    He said God's election is "through the sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth"
     
    #64 JonShaff, Apr 27, 2017
  5. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    If election is not unconditional, then it is conditional. So my question stands. What condition did Van meet that obligated God to save him?

    It is a very simple question. There really is no need for obfuscation.
     
    #65 TCassidy, Apr 27, 2017
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  6. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    The Condition is that a person is "In Christ"
     
    #66 JonShaff, Apr 27, 2017
  7. Robert William

    Robert William Member
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    Here are some verses in agreement. :)

    Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
    Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
    Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
    Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
    Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
    Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
    Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
    Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
    Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
     
    #67 Robert William, Apr 27, 2017
  8. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    So a person is elect because he is in Christ. Are people in Christ before they are saved? 2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
     
    #68 TCassidy, Apr 27, 2017
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  9. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    LOL...You asked what is the condition...that is the condition...that we be found "In Christ"

    Philippians 3:8-9
    I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God on the basis of faith.
     
    #69 JonShaff, Apr 27, 2017
  10. Robert William

    Robert William Member
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    #70 Robert William, Apr 27, 2017
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another effort to change the subject. It seems the Calvinists, although different models, are all from the same brand - charge-o-matic.

    Did I say God was required to save anyone? Nope - so yet another deflection, another change of subject.

    See a pattern folks?

    God chose individuals for salvation from the beginning through the sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth, thus a conditional election. We lived without mercy before becoming a chosen people. Thus our individual election for salvation occurs during our lifetime, 1 Peter 2:9-10. God chose us as individuals poor to the world, rich in faith, and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God, James 2:5.

    Unconditional Election is fake theology
     
    #71 Van, Apr 27, 2017
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  12. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Yes, we all know what the word means. But I still have not received an answer.

    And there is nothing "tricky" about my thinking. It seems patently obvious to me, not to mention anyone with even modest cognitive reasoning skills. :)

    Conditional: you must meet a condistion.

    Unconditional: there is no condition you can meet.

    Ipso facto. QED
     
    #72 TCassidy, Apr 27, 2017
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  13. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    And yet another attempt to dodge the question. Which, by the way, you brought up. I did not change the subject. You brought it up.
    Do you care to answer the question or just keep dodging, weaving, sidestepping, and throwing up a smoke screen?
     
    #73 TCassidy, Apr 27, 2017
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  14. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    So you believe a person is "in Christ" before he is saved? How does that work? How can a lost person be "in Christ?" And if that person is "in Christ" before he is saved, what changes when he gets saved?
     
    #74 TCassidy, Apr 27, 2017
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  15. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Maybe i'm not being clear (good chance that is true). A person is Placed "In Christ" when they Believe/Faith in Him. God Chose before the Foundation of the World that HIs elect would be the One's who are "In Christ". Therefore, the condition for God's election is conditional upon a person being in Christ.
     
    #75 JonShaff, Apr 27, 2017
  16. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    But you said we are elect because we are "in Christ." But Paul says, in Timothy 2:10 "Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory."

    He seems to be saying he keeps on, enduring hardship, for the sake of the elect who, according to him, are not yet saved, but he keeps preaching so that they may obtain salvation which is "in Christ."

    You say the elect are "in Christ" but Paul says they are not yet "in Christ" but he keeps on preaching so that they may be in Christ.

    Again, do you think Paul was wrong? Are the elect already "in Christ" or not?
     
    #76 TCassidy, Apr 27, 2017
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  17. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Ahhhh...i see what you are saying here, my fault for the confusion

    I'm always laboring for more people to come to know Christ as their Lord and Savior. I do not believe Paul is talking about an Unveiled group of people out there who do not yet know they are elect, but will find out once the Gospel is Shared. I think he is simply talking about his laborious efforts sharing the Gospel and his Focus is two-fold...Glorifying God by preaching Christ and souls being saved...and Concerning himself with the souls of mankind, that they would come to Christ as Lord and Savior. IMO
     
    #77 JonShaff, Apr 27, 2017
  18. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    So, are the lost elect "in Christ" or not? If so, why did Paul say what he said.
     
    #78 TCassidy, Apr 27, 2017
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  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I see TC continues to ask the same question based on the same falsehood over and over. The topic is Election conditioned on faith in the truth. TC asks how can God condition His election based on faith in the truth. Is this a work and therefore not of grace? Now have I quoted Romans 4:4? Yes. So why does He ask what scripture plainly answers. One thing about liberals, when they are charging others, they are describing themselves. (dodging, weaving, sidestepping, and throwing up a smoke screen.)

    Does scripture tell us at least part of the basis for God crediting Abraham's faith as righteousness? Yes. Did I quote those verses already in this thread. But again, TC asks the same question over and over again. He believed in the promises of God. The selection is by faith in order that it be according to grace. Did Abraham waver in unbelief? Nope

    Does God choose those that are rich in faith? Yes. How about those that love God? Yes.

    But all these scriptural answers are "sidestepped" ignored, dodged and obfuscated under a smoke screen of false charges.

    Go figure.
     
    #79 Van, Apr 27, 2017
  20. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    ???

    God chooses who is in Christ without setting a condition. It's still unconditional.
     
    #80 MennoSota, Apr 27, 2017
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