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Volition

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by revmwc, Apr 25, 2017.

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  1. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    No Paul was not wrong. Salvation frees us from sin and death. The natural can't understand Spiritual teaching deep doctrinal teaching, it is foolishness to them. Doesn't mean they can't respond to the drawing of the Spirit to salvation. They can't understand for instance sanctification, nor can they understand how salvation is by Grace through, but they can respond when drawn byt he Spirit and they can accept the Lord or reject Him. The Law of the Spirit of Life is that we must believe on the Son for salvation which frees us from the Law of Sin and Death. But that goes back tot he point of this thread where "thelō" one must use the God Divine Gift of volition to make a conscious choice to receive Christ as savior. Not to believe and call (Romans 10:13) means no salvation.
     
    #41 revmwc, Apr 28, 2017
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  2. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    vines,
    A — 1: γινώσκω
    (Strong's #1097 — Verb — ginosko — ghin-oce'-ko )
    signifies "to be taking in knowledge, to come to know, recognize, understand," or "to understand completely," e.g., Mark 13:28,29 ; John 13:12 ; 15:18 ; 21:17 ; 2 Corinthians 8:9 ; Hebrews 10:34 ; 1 John 2:5 ; 4:2,6 (twice),7,13; 5:2,20; in its past tenses it frequently means "to know in the sense of realizing," the aorist or point tense usually indicating definiteness, Matthew 13:11 ; Mark 7:24 ; John 7:26 ; in John 10:38 "that ye may know (aorist tense) and understand, (present tense);" John 19:4 ; Acts 1:7 ; 17:19 ; Romans 1:21 ; 1 Corinthians 2:11 (2nd part),14; 2 Corinthians 2:4 ; Ephesians 3:19 ; 6:22 ; Philippians 2:19 ; 3:10 ; 1 Thessalonians 3:5 ; 2 Timothy 2:19 ; James 2:20 ; 1 John 2:13 (twice),14; 3:6; 4:8; 2 John 1:1 ; Revelation 2:24 ; 3:3,9 . In the Passive Voice, it often signifies "to become known," e.g., Matthew 10:26 ; Philippians 4:5 . In the sense of complete and absolute understanding on God's part, it is used e.g., in Luke 16:15 ; John 10:15 (of the Son as well as the Father); 1 Corinthians 3:20 . In Luke 12:46 , AV, it is rendered "he is ... aware."

    In the NT ginosko frequently indicates a relation between the person "knowing" and the object known; in this respect, what is "known" is of value or importance to the one who knows, and hence the establishment of the relationship, e.g., especially of God's "knowledge," 1 Corinthians 8:3 , "if any man love God, the same is known of Him;" Galatians 4:9 , "to be known of God;" here the "knowing" suggests approval and bears the meaning "to be approved;" so in 2 Timothy 2:19 ; cp. John 10:14,27 ; Genesis 18:19 ; Nahum 1:7 ; the relationship implied may involve remedial chastisement, Amos 3:2 . The same idea of appreciation as well as "knowledge" underlies several statements concerning the "knowledge" of God and His truth on the part of believers, e.g., John 8:32 ; 14:20,31 ; 17:3 ; Galatians 4:9 (1st part); 1 John 2:3,13,14 ; 4:6,8,16 ; 5:20 ; such "knowledge" is obtained, not by mere intellectual activity, but by operation of the Holy Spirit consequent upon acceptance of Christ. Nor is such "knowledge" marked by finality; see e.g., 2 Peter 3:18 ; Hosea 6:3 , RV. The verb is also used to convey the thought of connection or union, as between man and woman, Matthew 1:25 ; Luke 1:34 .
     
    #42 revmwc, Apr 28, 2017
  3. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    So you agree, the lost man does not have free will. His will is in bondage to the law of sin and death. And unless the Father draws him to Christ to be freed from the bondage to the law of sin and death he would have no hope.

    Glad to see you are coming around. :)
     
    #43 TCassidy, Apr 28, 2017
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  4. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Your will was in bondage to sin and death, but you chose to receive Christ by calling upon Him was that freely or were you coerced into believing. Did you use your "thelō" or did God the Holy Spirit make you irresistibly receive Christ? Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will (thelo), let him take the water of life freely. Whosoever Thelo will let Him take the water of life freely. 1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have (thelo) all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.. God's will his desire is that all come, but not all come. 2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly (thelo) are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: The unbeliever is willingly ignorant because he wuses his volition to remain that way, thus he chooses by his own free will to remain ignorant.
     
    #44 revmwc, Apr 28, 2017
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  5. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Human will does not equate to free will.

    Remember, Jesus said we will serve one of two masters. Then Apostle Paul said in Romans 6:6 & Romans 6:16 that whoever we submit our members to are who we obey.

    If we have a master, we are a slave. Slaves aren't free at all, but under their grasp, their authority.

    Whoever the Lord frees is free indeed.[John 8:36]
     
    #45 SovereignGrace, Apr 28, 2017
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Good point, as only those now in Christ actually have freedom, unsaved still under leash of the flesh ansd satan to some degree!
     
    #46 Yeshua1, Apr 28, 2017
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  7. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    God drew me, through the preaching of the Gospel, to the Beauty of His Holiness, to the Joy of His forgiveness, and made His will so supremely desirable that I no longer wanted to resist. My soul had been enlightened, my spirit reborn, my eyes were opened, and my new heart of faith went forth and followed Him. Does that sound like coercion to you? (This is the same empty, vacuous argument that is brought up every time a Particular Baptist explains the Sovereignty of God in Salvation. The old "coercion" straw man.)

    The Father drew me to the Son and God's Grace is always efficacious. It always accomplishes exactly what God wants it to accomplish.

    Yes. And who will? Jesus answered that for us in John 6:44.

    John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day.

    No one can come to me except the father draw him. Total depravity.

    Unless the Father draws him. Unconditional election.

    And what of those the Father draws? Will come to me. How do we know all that the Father draws will come to Christ? Because He will raise them up on the last day. John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing.

    So, in John 6 we have:

    Total Depravity, "You are UNABLE to come to me",

    Unconditional Election, "unless the FATHER DRAW HIM",

    Definite Atonement, "ALL that the Father draws WILL COME",

    Efficacious Grace, ALL that the Father draws WILL COME", and

    Preservation of the Saints, "All that come to me I will not cast out"

    So God's will is too weak to overcome man's resistance?

    Wait a minute. You started your post by saying the lost man's will is not free, but agreed it was bound to the law of sin and death. Now you are saying the opposite?
     
    #47 TCassidy, Apr 28, 2017
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  8. Calv1

    Calv1 Active Member

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    We were coerced into believing. In John 6, "you are UNABLE to come to me UNLESS the Father who sent me DRAW HIM', this word 'Draw' literally means 'Dragged", as the women at the well, she was 'Dragged by the neck". God save us as prophesied in the OT by "Taking out the heart of stone and putting in a heart of flesh', "I have DRAWN YOU WITH MY LOVINGKINDNESS". Unless a action happens, that is the Father drawing, no one will come to Christ, for ALL that the Father draw, COME, not one doesn't.

    Why do you want to believe heresy? I just don't get it, is it ego, to be proud that you are better or smarter than your neighbor? i just can't believe in this day and age people still hang onto liberal Roman Synergism
     
    #48 Calv1, Apr 28, 2017
  9. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    The question is not are we that "spiritually dead,"? the question is, is Calvin' s god so impotent and his love so bland that he could not draw an unbeliever to himself? And that he must regenerate him first?
     
    #49 JonShaff, Apr 28, 2017
  10. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Nope, He is not too weak..

    But God quickens whoever He wills, not those who muster up their will. While we were dead in transgressions & sins, God quickened(made us alive) us.
     
    #50 SovereignGrace, Apr 28, 2017
  11. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any sense at all. It is the drawing of the Father to the Son that is regeneration!
     
    #51 TCassidy, Apr 28, 2017
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  12. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    What does it mean to be made alive?
     
    #52 JonShaff, Apr 28, 2017
  13. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Roman synergism?

    I have a hard time believing anything that came out of Rome...Calvin, Augustine, Luther....
     
    #53 JonShaff, Apr 28, 2017
  14. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    To be given new life In Christ.
    To be born again.
    To be regenerated.
    To be made alive in Christ.

    I am really concerned that you have to ask such a question. :(
     
    #54 TCassidy, Apr 28, 2017
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  15. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Protestantism? Baptists? All Evangelicalism? Really?
     
    #55 TCassidy, Apr 28, 2017
  16. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Please don't be concerned. And I asked SovereignGrace, although that's fine if you want to answer for him.

    You have used synonyms for "made alive"...My question was What does it MEAN? Definitions my friend.

    Don't worry, I'm not going to belittle you for not knowing what "what does it mean" mean. :)
     
    #56 JonShaff, Apr 28, 2017
  17. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Right, so sacramentalism is evangelical? Not in my opinion. Elder led churches, is that Baptist?
     
    #57 JonShaff, Apr 28, 2017
  18. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    It means we are made alive. It means we are no longer dead in trespass and sin. It means we have been born into the Family of God.

    In other words it is an entirely self-explanatory term and I can't, for the life of me, understand why you are having such trouble understanding it. Unless you do understand and are just being obfuscationist.

    So, to clarify, why not tell me what part of my previous answer you didn't understand and that will give me a starting place in further explaining the meaning of "made alive."
     
    #58 TCassidy, Apr 28, 2017
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  19. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Are you under the impression that all Protestants are sacramentalists?

    Every baptist church I have ever been in, including the one I pastored for 27 years, were elder lead.
     
    #59 TCassidy, Apr 28, 2017
  20. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    No...but those who I quoted were (Calvin, Luther, Augustine)
    Sounds presbyterian
     
    #60 JonShaff, Apr 28, 2017
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