Featured Hell: Which View is The Bible One?

The first or second views. It's literal or the punishment metaphorical. Instead of flaming fire it may be something else.

 

Actually, there are many who believe in conditional immortality, not because of perceived conflicts between God's grace and eternal torture, but because they see that the scripture teaches it consistently. See the Rethinking Hell site for background on this.

 

Perhaps that there is no hell at all is a fifth view. The Universalist Primitive Baptist hold a view something like this, except they believe there is a "hell" punishment in the temporal world now.

I hold that hell (perhaps more specifically, the lake of fire) is literal punishment that is everlasting.

 

Thanks for the link.

 

There's actually very few of them. We call them 'no-hellers'. Some PBs will allow no-heller preachers to visit on the condition they not preach the doctrine. I've heard some mighty spiritual preaching from a couple of no-hellers.

I'm a 'slow-heller'. I think a whoooole lot of passages that many consider to mean eternal consequences do not.

 

Care to share a few here? I could stand to hear a bit more, and it seems within the scope of the thread.

 

Sure, here's one, a BIG one:

13 Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby.
14 For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leadeth unto life, and few are they that find it. Mt 7

Here's another:

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of repentance:
9 and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And even now the axe lieth at the root of the trees: every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire:
12 whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire. Mt 3

Another:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.
28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses:
29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Heb 10

There's three, let's pick them apart. Your thoughts?

I must go take care of business, be back later.

 

Hi Andy, I took one last look before I left so I'll respond to you. If it wasn't for the story/parable of Lazarus and The Rich Man I probably would be in the annihilist camp but just can't work around that one. As odd as it may seem I'm not convinced 100% of any one view. I'm looking forward to discussing it.

Thanks for starting the thread.

(waiting for the hardliners to show up and warn of eternal judgement to those that don't see it their way)

 

Jesus was quoting Isaiah 66 as a point of reference, specifically Isaiah 66:24 in the context of everything that has come before it - specifically Isaiah 66:15-17 - when it describes the LORD slaying all of his enemies. Isaiah 66:24 reads:

“Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.”​

The bodies of the LORD's enemies will be shamefully consumed by animals and fire, and no one will give them an honorable burial. There will be no one to clean the maggots (worms) off of the body, so they will not die (maggots become flies) and there will be no one to put out the fire (quench) until it consumes their remains.

Notice that it doesn't say that the fire will not go out on its own, only that it will not be quenched.

So when Jesus quotes Isaiah 66, it is powerful evidence AGAINST eternal conscious torment.

I find the subject of God's righteous judgment to be quite sad, but it is not difficult if you set aside tradition and study what the text actually says. God is setting everything right.

 

If hell=lake of fire, then absolutely.

Yep, real judgment coming.

That's the sticking point for me as to the story of the rich man and Lazarus being something other than a parable/illustration. I don't argue either way on that, but I don't think we can use it as an example of a final destiny for humankind.

The way I've landed is that the lake of fire is real and it will consume everything thrown into it - including death and Hades - and will last as long as required. The consequences of the final judgment are eternal and will not be reverse. It is the truest and final death penalty.

I appreciate that sentiment, but I long for there to be consequences for those who commit evil and escape this life without truly answering for their crimes.

 

Matthew 25:46. 'And these [wicked] will go into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.'
The Greek word for 'everlasting' and 'eternal' is the same (aionios), so if hell is not everlasting, neither is heaven.

Instead of trying to often the word of God, Christians should do two things:-
1. Make sure we know where we're going.
2. Tell others how to get to the same place.

 

Yes, that was my point. No one will or can extinguish the fire. That does NOT mean that the fire will not die on its own when it runs out of fuel.

No it does not.

The "smoke rising..." imagery is used in the scriptures to indicate complete and eternal destruction. Speaking of Edom, Isaiah wrote (Isaiah 34:8-10):

For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
It will not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.​

If you can show me where Edom is still burning today, that would go a long way toward supporting your interpretation.

That's a really interesting view. Unfortunately it simply does not jibe with the text that Jesus is quoting (Isaiah 66). The corpses (they were already slain) were being eaten by the worms - they were not the worms themselves.

Unless you are going to assert that Jesus wasn't actually quoting Isaiah 66, or that Jesus did not want his audience to consider the context of Isaiah 66 (they would have been quite familiar with it), then your assertion is invalid.

Whatever you claim about the rich man and Lazarus passage, it is not the same thing as the lake of fire in Revelation. If it is actually talking about what happens after death with specificity, then it is referring to the intermediate state before the final judgment.

A time of consciousness and extreme pain? Sure. Eternal conscious torment? It makes no such assertion. In fact, earlier in the teaching before Jesus explains the point in more detail, refers to the tare being "burned up" (see Matthew 13:30 and Matthew 13:40). That is definitely NOT eternal conscious torment.

Why are you quoting Unitarians? Let's stick with scripture.

No one is denying that judgment will be painful or conscious. The issue is whether or not it will be eternal in duration.

 

When humans execute someone using the death penalty. Is that irreversible by human means? Yep.

All this is saying is that the destinies are final.