1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Woman senior pastor

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by agedman, May 8, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. JB_Reformed Baptist

    JB_Reformed Baptist New Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    3
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Let's start with woman pastor, period! Senior or otherwise is a play on words and already assumes some sort of authority.

    Women have no divine sanction in regards to authority in church leadership. The women authority if one desires to use such is that they are competent to guide the younger women in regards to their behavior towards husband and children. This, of course, assumes the older woman has practiced what she so desires to teach.

    The fact that one might appeal to various interpretations already shows a sliding from the faith. Particularly on these central issues, and yes this is a core issue.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,788
    Likes Received:
    698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yeah, keep reading. A few verses later Paul says deacons are likewise to be husbands of one wife. Then flip over to Romans chapter 16 where Paul commends "sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae."
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    10,720
    Likes Received:
    781
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The word translated "woman" here, and other places, can be translated as "wife." Context generally tells you which way to go. If you assume that women are not supposed to speak in church, then you go with "woman."

    Yes, it is inconsistent. However, when we read the book of Acts carefully, we see that women speak on behalf of the gospel regularly.

    There were women in the Upper Room (Acts 1:14), and when the Spirit was given in power, the tongues of fire (a visual symbol of authority and inclusion in this event) rested upon ALL of them and they spoke in the unknown languages (Acts 2:3-4). Then Peter pointed out to the crowds what they were seeing and hearing, that "their sons and daughters shall prophesy..." (Acts 2:17). And I guess I should point out that Philip the evangelist had four unmarried daughters who were prophetesses (Acts 21:9). Of course, this was not a new thing. Jesus had female disciples that traveled with Him (Luke 8:1-3). Mary, sister of Martha and Lazarus, took a place at the feet of Jesus (just like a male disciple) and was approved and defended by Jesus (Luke 10:38-42).

    I have to believe that 1 Corinthians 14:35 is talking about wives publicly questioning their husbands in the meeting regarding the content of their teaching since Paul had given advice regarding head coverings when a woman spoke in the midst of the congregation (1 Corinthians 11:5) shortly before he wrote 14:35.

    Therefore, I don't understand how you can lament the loss of head coverings for women AND affirm that they be silent in the churches at the same time.
     
    #43 Baptist Believer, May 10, 2017
    Last edited: May 10, 2017
  4. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2017
    Messages:
    590
    Likes Received:
    46
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The King James calls her a "servant".
     
  5. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    10,720
    Likes Received:
    781
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That's exactly what "deacon" means. It's the same word that is transliterated as "deacon" in other places.​
     
    #45 Baptist Believer, May 10, 2017
    Last edited: May 10, 2017
  6. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2017
    Messages:
    590
    Likes Received:
    46
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Actually no. The word "servant" is used throughout the King James. There is a distinction between the two, therefore there are different words used..
     
  7. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    10,720
    Likes Received:
    781
    Faith:
    Baptist
    In the King James translation, there are two different words used. But in the original Greek language, it is the SAME word. Go back and look at the references I placed in the edit of my last post.
     
  8. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2017
    Messages:
    590
    Likes Received:
    46
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It was translated as "deacon", "minister", "administer" "serveth" and "serve" but I don't see anywhere in the King James Bible that "diakoneo" was translated as "servant". Genesis Chapter 1 (KJV)
     
  9. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    10,720
    Likes Received:
    781
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Take a look at 1 Timothy 3:10 and 3:13.
     
  10. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2017
    Messages:
    590
    Likes Received:
    46
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes, I Timothy 3 says that a "diakoneo" is to be the "aner mia gyne" ...........husband of one wife. What's your point?
     
  11. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    10,720
    Likes Received:
    781
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You made an assertion regarding the usage of the word. I answered it, demonstrating that your assertion was unfounded.

    If you want to shift your argument to claim that Phoebe can't be a deacon because of 1 Timothy 3, you are mistaken. The female deacons have standards too:

    Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain, but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach. Women must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things. Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households. For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.​

    All of these qualifications are issues of character and ability, including the "husband of one wife" prohibition against polygamy and serial monogamy. Women were not in a position to abuse divorce laws like men.
     
  12. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    52,013
    Likes Received:
    3,649
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. For those who well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus. 1 Timothy 3:8-13 (ESV)

    A Deacon must be a:

    1. Honest (grave)
    2. Trustworthy (not double tongued)
    3. Not a drunk (not given to much wine)
    4. honest with money (not greedy dishonest gain)
    5. Solid and faithful to the faith (hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience)
    6. proven faithful (be tested first)
    7. Men (Their wives, husband of one wife)
    8. Married to faithful women (wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things)
    9. Provide primary leadership in the house (managing their children and their own households well)

    These are clear, not cultural, simple, and without reasonable question.
     
  13. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    10,720
    Likes Received:
    781
    Faith:
    Baptist
    And yet the writer of these guidelines commends Phoebe, a deacon of the church.
     
  14. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    52,013
    Likes Received:
    3,649
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Uh no, not a deacon of the church. If she were then these would be in direct contradiction, second using the adjective servant does not have to mean a deacon. Every church has women who are servants of God but most of which who are not deacons as scripture prescribes.
     
  15. Charles Blair

    Charles Blair New Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2017
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Frequently it's a deacon's wife who does the same, or a dear widow in her '80's whom no one dares contradict!
     
  16. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    52,013
    Likes Received:
    3,649
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Uh no they do not. Not as a Deacon of the church but as a servant of the church.
     
  17. PrmtvBptst1832

    PrmtvBptst1832 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 18, 2006
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    40
    Faith:
    Baptist
    True there were women prophetesses, but Paul gives instructions for prophets speaking in the church, but never prophetesses. Furthermore, it never says anything about women questioning their husbands. That is your interpretation of what Paul said, but it isn't what Paul said.
     
  18. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    10,720
    Likes Received:
    781
    Faith:
    Baptist
    1 Corinthians 11:4-16
    4 Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. 5 But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved. 6 For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. 7 For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8 For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; 9 for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake. 10 Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God. 13 Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, 15 but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering. 16 But if one is inclined to be contentious, we have no other practice, nor have the churches of God.

    Whatever else this passage teaches about head coverings, the context of this passage indeed shows that:
    (1) Women pray and prophesy
    (2) This is meant to happen in the meetings of the local church
    (3) This is common practice in the churches

    It is certainly my (and some scholar's interpretation), but everything that you have written is also your interpretation. We are all interpreting scripture in good faith.
     
  19. jonathan.borland

    jonathan.borland Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,166
    Likes Received:
    2
    The main Chinese translation in 1 Tim 3:11 has 女执事 = female deacon(s).
     
  20. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2014
    Messages:
    13,793
    Likes Received:
    2,468
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Why are we using Chinese?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...