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Conditional Immortality! Do You Understand It? Do You Believe It?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Mark Corbett, Jun 3, 2017.

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  1. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Active Member

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    [​IMG]

    In this blog post I will write about a specific belief called “conditional immorality” and will also try to help you see how the Bible trains us to think in patterns consistent with this belief.

    Conditional immortality is a doctrine based on the Bible which says that people will live forever only under certain conditions. This doctrine can be seen quite clearly in many verses which discuss eternal life. In these verses a condition is either explicitly stated or else strongly implied. After this paragraph are some examples. Don’t rush through them. This is God’s Word and you will benefit by reading them slowly and thinking about them even if they are familiar to you:

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    We can see from these examples that God, through His Word, conditions us to think of eternal life (immortality) not as something that all humans automatically have no matter what, but rather as a special gift from God which depends on us meeting a condition: namely faith in Jesus Christ.

    Sometimes, the condition given is that we live the kind of life and make the kind of decisions which demonstrate that we really do believe in Jesus. In these cases, there is still a “condition” and there is still “immortality”, but the condition is stated as an evidence of faith in Christ rather than simply faith itself. Here are two examples:

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    If you would like to see a few more verses where this pattern of conditional immortality can be seen, look up these verses. Then, see if you can identify the condition and the immortality:

    John 3:15, John 4:14, John 5:24, John 6:47, 1 John 5:13, Romans 2:7, Romans 5:21, Titus 3:7, 1 John 5:11

    There are other verses, but you have seen enough to see how clear and consistent this pattern is. We will live forever only by God’s grace which we receive only if we have faith in Jesus. Our faith is in a Savior who changes how we live. Sometimes the condition focuses explicitly on our faith in Jesus and other times the condition focuses on the changes in our lives that come from faith in Jesus.

    Now, we might wonder about the “negative side” of conditional immorality. God holds out hope through gracious promises for those who believe in Christ. He also gives warnings of the tragic consequences for those who do not believe:

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    Consistency and Inconsistency

    One of the many signs that the Bible is inspired by God is that it is consistent in what it teaches. This is true even though, from a human point of view, the Bible was written by many authors over a period of more than 1,400 years. The doctrine of conditional immortality is an example of Biblical consistency. On the one hand, from Genesis to Revelation the Bible never says that all people are immortal. It never says that the unrighteous will live forever. On the other hand, the Bible consistently offers eternal life to those who put their faith in Christ. “Conditional Immortality” is seen consistently throughout Scripture.

    While the Bible is 100% consistent, we are not. The Bible is perfect, but our understanding of it is flawed. Even as Christians who really believe the Bible is God’s inerrant Word, and who really have put our faith in Jesus, and who really seek God’s truth, we still have errors mixed into our understanding. One sign of an imperfect understanding of the Bible is when part of what we believe is not consistent with the rest of what we believe. Another sign of misunderstanding is when something we believe requires us to talk in ways that are different from the way the Bible talks. Here is an example:

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    Can you see how the slogan on the t-shirt is inconsistent with the consistent Bible teaching about conditional immortality?

    It’s not just t-shirts and bumper stickers that contain this inconsistent way of thinking. Good, godly, Christian pastors, authors, teachers, and others often think in terms of UN-conditional immortality. In other words, they believe and talk as if all people will live forever whether they are saved or not.

    Seeing the relationship between the doctrine of conditional immortality and the doctrine of the final fate of the unrighteous clarifies the problem:

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    Questions?

    This blog post may raise a lot of questions in your mind. In fact, I hope it does!

    This is a lightly modified version of a post which originally appeared on my blog.
     
    #1 Mark Corbett, Jun 3, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2017
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  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The scriptures teach that all are immortal, for we are those created still in image of God, but that only redeemed have "eternal life:, in sense of presence with God!
     
  3. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Active Member

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    Yeshua, I honestly cannot find a verse which says that the unrighteous have immortal life. Can you?
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, as the scriptures teach that Hell is eternal, so they would have to be immortal!
     
  5. wTanksley

    wTanksley Member

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    Mark, I really like how you put that -- the contrast between the condition of salvation (leading to eternal life by means of making our corruptible bodies incorruptible and immortal) and non-salvation (forfeiting eternal life, by means of death which is the end of a life) could not be made more clear in the Bible.

    I think the two eschatological views that teach unconditional immortality (universalism and eternal conscious torment) both make a very simple mistake of treating a temporary thing as though it were permanent. Universalism treats the temporary gift of life given to all men since the Fall as being man's rightful condition, so that God is being unjust if He removes it; while eternal torment treats the "Day of Judgment" as being a permanent condition instead of being a Day.

    Yeshua1, I agree that man is in the image of God still; but this is nowhere in the Bible taught to mean that man deserves to live forever. It's not sensible to assume it means that without some kind of justification; otherwise people could simply assume that being in the image of God means whatever crazy doctrine they wanted to push.

    In the institution of the Image of God (Genesis 1:26) God explains that the image of God is given to "let man rule over" the other creatures on Earth. This has nothing to do with being immortal; and perhaps more importantly, this could not possibly be fulfilled in a place (like hell is in the eternal-torment theory) where man no longer can rule over the other creatures and can no longer represent God to those creatures.

    In Genesis 3:22, God, although remembering that man is in His image, nonetheless says that given man's knowledge of good and evil, man cannot live forever. There's no hint here that this problem is limited to man's body; on the contrary, man's knowledge of good and evil impacts his mind, as many passages in the New Testament make clear we cannot call ourselves saved from sin without the renewal of the mind.

    We next see God's image mentioned in Genesis 9:6, where it's the justification for executing murderers. This passage shows that the ancients could not possibly have thought that "in God's image" means "immortal", since here it means man CAN be killed!

    There are no other clear texts that bear on the issue of the image of God. James correctly tells us that it's bad to despise the image of God verbally when we honor God in church; and some people think Jesus tells us that because we have the image of God stamped on us we owe ourselves to God (just as we owe Caesar taxes on coins stamped with Caesar's image). But none of this helps us understand whether immortality is part of man's inherent condition.

    So I don't think simply pointing out that we're in the image of God helps settle this issue at all.

    On the other hand, when Paul glorifies Christ as God by saying that He is the one "who alone has immortality", or that Christ's gospel "brought immortality to light", I think he makes it very clear that we did not and could not expect immortality apart from Christ.
     
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  6. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Active Member

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    Yeshua, I would help if you could give a specific scripture. Than we could begin to discuss it.
     
  7. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    This is about as close as it gets:

    Matthew 25
    45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    HankD
     
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  8. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Active Member

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    Hank, thanks for mentioning Matthew 25:46.

    Traditionalists (those who believe in eternal conscious torment) view Matthew 25:46 as giving very strong evidence in favor of the doctrine of eternal conscious punishment. They argue that “eternal” must mean the same thing when it refers to “eternal life” at the end of the verse and when it refers to “eternal punishment” just a few words earlier. Many consider this passage to be one of the strongest pillars supporting the traditional view of Hell.

    Those who have come to believe in Conditional Immorality, also believe wholeheartedly that “eternal” means the same thing both times it is used in Matthew 25:46. The issue is not the duration of the punishment, but its nature. Eternal punishment would be an appropriate phrase to use to describe eternal conscious torment. But it is equally appropriate to use the phrase to describe an eternal, irreversible, permanent second death. For the annihilationist the word “eternal” is important and necessary because it guards against the false hope of some type of universalism or some type of “second resurrection” after the second death. It makes it clear that the unsaved will never, for all eternity, enter Heaven. Destruction of body and soul may not be an eternal punish-ing, but it certainly is an eternal punish-ment.

    I saw this more clearly when I saw that there were other examples where the word “eternal” was used to describe an event which itself did not go on forever in terms of the process, but which did have permanent, lasting, final results. Here are two good examples:

    ESV Hebrews 6:2 and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

    ESV Hebrews 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

    “Eternal judgment” is not a process of judging which goes on forever and ever. It is a judgment which occurs at a point in time, but which has permanent, indeed eternal, results which never change. “Eternal redemption” does not mean that the process of redeeming us continues forever. It means that the redemption which is now complete has permanent, eternal results. And so “eternal punishment” does not have to mean a process of punishing which goes on forever. “Eternal punishment” refers to a process of limited duration which ends with a result (death, destruction, and being burned up to ashes) which is permanent and eternal and will never be reversed.

    Not only is it possible that Matthew 25:46 does not mean eternal conscious punishment, there is evidence right within the verse that it is referring to death and destruction. The evidence is that it is ONLY the righteous who enter eternal life. The unrighteous will not live forever. Eternal punishment is not contrasted with eternal happiness. It is contrasted with eternal life.
     
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  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Eternal punishment - a punishment with eternal consequences - separation from God forever. The word translated punishment can refer to confinement or enforced separation.

    I just skimmed this but anytime the concept that the torment will not be eternal is presented, we need to always make clear the torment will be real, and horrible, and last as long as God's perfect justice requires. Otherwise you would be open to the charge that you are saying eternal punishment is actually eternal rest in peace. And that is not the message of Christ!
     
  10. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Active Member

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    Van, I agree that the unrighteous will be raised to face judgment, and that they will experience an amount of conscious suffering appropriate for their sins. Yet, while the Bible mentions this suffering, the main emphasis is that the penalty for sins is death. They will miss out on an eternity with Christ in a perfect world full of joy. This is the worst and most terrible part of their punishment. What they miss out on is far worse than the period of conscious suffering, although I agree with you that the Bible indicates there will be a limited period of conscious suffering. Thanks for helping me clarify this.
     
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  11. wTanksley

    wTanksley Member

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    I really like it when people give Biblical reasons to think the way they do. I clicked "Like" on HankD's message for that reason, even though I don't think he got the passage he was quoting perfectly right -- he was reading a Biblical text, and interpreting it well; the only problem is that he missed part of the text.

    But when you say this kind of thing, I have to wonder... why do you even think it's true? It doesn't sound like anything the Bible mentions.

    In the context of Matt 25, Jesus offers two hints that preclude that "mere separation" reading.

    First, this punishment includes being sent into the eternal fire. This is NOT mere "separation", but a punishment which begins by sending them into the same fire that Jude 7 and 2 Peter 2:6 say reduced Sodom to ashes.

    Second, as Mark Corbett mentioned in response to HankD's challenge, this "eternal punishment" is opposed to the fate of "eternal life." The righteous, in this picture of final judgment, are sent into life, and receive no punishment; the wicked are sent into punishment and receive no life. But this is _death_, not mere separation.

    I could add a third problem with this mere separation view, although it's not contextual: it ignores the problem of mankind existing apart from God. Throughout the Bible God's presence is what gives us life; Paul explains when testifying to pagans "in Him we live, and move, and have our being" (Acts 17:28). There's no reason to think that being separated from God makes sense even _now_. And in the age to come it makes even less sense: then, "God will be all in all" and all things will be submitted to Christ and to Himself (Eph 1:22, 1 Cor 15:27, Heb 2:8), uniting all things to God (see the context of the previous passages).

    Conditionalists (that is, believers in conditional immortality as presented above) do affirm this. Torment will last as long as God's perfect justice requires. But torment is not in general the wages of sin! Rather, torment is the penalty deserved for specific acts which violate conscience (Rom 2), persecute believers (2Thess 1), or harm God's church (Luke 12). The wages of sin, ALL sin and ANY sin, is _death_; as Romans 1:32 says, this is what everyone knows God's righteous decree is against all who sin. That is the fundamental problem the first murderer (the serpent) introduced in the world; and it's the problem Eve's offspring, Jesus, solved by dying for us. From the first sin in Genesis to the resurrection in Revelation, the problem is sin leading to death, and the cure is the Spirit giving everlasting life. There is no life apart from salvation in Christ!

    Well, that certainly is a profound confusion about the message of Christ, yes! But it's entirely due to a confusion about what we mean when we say "rest in peace." Resting, sleeping, is only wonderful when we know someone's going to wake up later. That's not the case with your "eternal rest in peace." When Paul considered the possibility of resurrection never happening, his reaction was not that we would eternally rest in peace; it was that we are of all men the most miserable, because our dead who we think have merely "fallen asleep" would in fact have "already perished."

    And this shows us that to perish doesn't mean to be tormented forever; it means to lose your life, and NOT to be able to take it up again. This is why Jesus warned that whoever denies Him in order to save their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life by continuing to preach Him will save it. Surely this has to be the most frequently repeated teaching of Christ in the Gospels! And this, again, is the clear and continuous teaching of conditional immortality in the Bible.
     
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  12. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Matthew 5:26. "Assuredly I say to you, you will by no means get out of there until you have paid the last penny."
    Mark 9:47-48. "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two yes, to be cast into hell fire-- where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'"
    Luke 12:4-5. "My friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: fear Him who after He has killed, has power to cast into hell. Yes, I say to you, fear Him!"
    Luke 17:2. "It would be better for him if a millstone were hung about his neck and he were thrown into the sea........"
    Revelation 20:10ff. 'The devil.....was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever..........And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.'

    I have a practical freason for being very concerned about 'Conditional Immortality.' As you will know it is the teaching of the JWs and Mormons. Some years ago a friend of mine, who was an unbeliever and lived a very immoral life, attended Bible Studies with the JWs. At the end of them, she said, "I'd sooner live my life today, and at the end, I'll just say, 'Cheerio!' to God and disappear." That remains her position today, and she is now Gospel-proof, unless, of course, God does a work on her heart. God is not mocked, and those who think they can thumb their noses at God and then just pop off at the end of their lives will have a terrible shock and we need to be warning them, not telling them that it won't be so bad after all.
     
  13. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Active Member

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    Martin, I'm not ignoring your list of verses. If someone else does not reply to them, Lord willing I will, but probably not tonight. But for now I want to reply to something we have in common. We both want your friend, and everyone else, to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

    Evangelical Conditionalism is not identical the annihilationism of the JWs. The JWs, as I understand them, do not believe that the unrighteous will be raised to face judgment. Evangelical Conditionalists do believe the unrighteous will be raised and will face judgment. Further, we believe that while the basic penalty for sin is eternal annihilation this in no way precludes conscious suffering prior to and/or as part of the process of annihilation.

    I would ask your friend this: If she found out that someone she cared about dearly was going to be captured by ISIS, tormented for 6 weeks, and then killed, would she say "No big deal, Cheerio!"? Of course not. She would desperately try to rescue them from such a fate. She is not taking this judgment seriously. It is a very severe judgment.

    Further, the Bible teaches, and experience confirms, that people do in fact fear death (Hebrews 2:15). Now, your friend may be suppressing that fear or it may be far from her mind if she is not expecting to die soon, but that fear is real and provides motivation to seek forgiveness of sins and the gift of eternal life.

    Also, consider this. No where in Acts do we see the Apostles or others mentioning future torment as a motivation to accept Christ. They focus on the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38), the promise of resurrection (Acts 23:6), and the hope of eternal life (Acts 13:46). Paul does mention "judgment", but does not specify the nature of the judgment.

    Keep in mind that the fact that JWs and Mormons believe in Annihilation does not in itself make Annihilation wrong just as the fact that Muslims believe in eternal conscious torment in and of itself does not make eternal conscious torment wrong.

    I want to close with a prayer: Lord, my brother Martin and I disagree about the fate of the unrighteous. But we agree that it will involve people eternally missing out on Your love and and Your glory. So, please work to save Martin's friend. Please give Martin the right words to say and the right opportunity to say them and please empower his witness. In Jesus Name, Amen.
     
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  14. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    If at "the end of the day" I find out that Christ indeed died in total propitiation for EVERY man (human being) and that hell is/was a metaphorical description that is/was not unending separation from God then not one word of complaint would come forth from my mouth

    Luke 15
    31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
    32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.


    He is the only way and those who rejected Him, or knew Him not, then they would haveto be "forced" to kneel before Him, renounce and reject their gods in submission to Him.

    Philippians 2
    9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
    10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
    11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    I can always dream the impossible dream.

    I guess that makes me close to being the H word.


    HankD
     
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  15. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    I'm curious....
    You started with a premise - namely, that immortality and eternal life are synonyms.

    Do you have biblical support for that premise?
     
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  16. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I forgot one other text:
    Daniel 12:2. 'And many of those who sleep in the dust shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.'

    Thank you for your kind prayer. However, I'm no longer in touch with the lady, but who knows........
     
  17. wTanksley

    wTanksley Member

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    That's a good question, because it addresses the actual point being made.

    Yes. First of all, "immortality" means "without death", both in Greek and English. "Eternal life" means (at least) life forever, which requires a lack of dying. You can check this in any Greek-English lexicon (which means a list of how a given Greek word is translated to English -- there's a very good lexicon at www.stepbible.org).

    The relationship between death and life is established first in Genesis 3, which tells us that man cannot live forever due to his sin, and therefore God sends him away from the Tree of Life which would potentially enable that. As a result, Adam finds himself forced to struggle for food until he finally dies, at which point God tells him "you will return to dust." At Adam's death, at least part of his life ends; the implication is the ultimately, his life cannot go on forever, but must end utterly.

    The close pairing of immortality with living forever is perhaps clearer in Hebrew, where the idea of God being immortal cannot be directly stated; rather, over and over those who understand God address Him as "the one who lives forever." To Nebuchadnezzar, this was the humiliation God put him through -- that God's plans would be carried out because God will be living forever, while we do not. Moses didn't need to be humiliated in this way; in Psalm 90, the "song of Moses", he proclaims that we live only briefly, but God lives forever.

    But Jesus made clear something the prophets could only faintly see -- that the good news of immortality in eternal life was available through Him. This is why Paul said Jesus "abolished death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel." (2 Tim. 1:10 CSB) Jesus likewise tells us that "Everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die-- ever." (Jn. 11:26 CSB) This promise is nowhere offered to the wicked, as Mark made clear in the OP.

    So yes, living forever means to be immortal. And everyone who has eternal life will never die; nobody who lacks eternal life will live forever; rather, their life will be taken from them by the one with the power to destroy body and soul in gehenna.
     
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  18. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Is this a treatise on Annihilationism?
     
  19. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Active Member

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    Martin, Thanks for taking the time to look up and post these verses. Before I begin to address them one by one, I want to make sure I understand why you posted them. I think it is very likely that you see these verses as providing prima facie (obvious at first glance) evidence against Conditional Immortality and in favor of eternal conscious torment. I can understand that because for many years I myself interpreted these verses the same way.

    But we should also be aware that there are verses which provide prima facie evidence for Conditional Immortality and Annihilationism. In addition to the verses mentioned in my OP, here are a few more:


    ESV Genesis 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever-- "

    NIV Psalm 37:20 But the wicked will perish: Though the LORD's enemies are like the flowers of the field, they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.

    NIV Matthew 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."

    ESV Philippians 3:19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things.

    NIV Luke 13:1 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.
    2 Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way?
    3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

    To some, your list and my list may appear to be contradictory. Yet, I'm convinced that a correct interpretation can eliminate apparent contradictions.

    I suspect that we share this common ground:
    1. We believe that while there may be apparent contradictions in the Bible, there are no true contradictions, and the appearance of contradiction is only due to our limited understanding and/or incorrect interpretations.
    2. While we may not be able to understand how every verse harmonizes with every other verse, in general the effort to reconcile verses which initially appear contradictory is a worthy effort.
    3. Our method of reconciling apparent contradictions is to carefully study God's Word, believing it is all true, and seeking to gain understanding by methods such as studying the immediate context, word studies, and the broad context of the Bible.

    So, I hope to continue in my next post by looking at one or more of the verses in your list.
     
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  20. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Active Member

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    No, but in my understanding a correct explanation of the doctrine of Conditional Immortality entails annihilationism. The two are connected.

    Annihilationism narrowly focuses on the final fate of the unrighteous.

    Conditional Immortality is a broader and more fundamental doctrine which basically posits that we will live forever only on a certain condition, namely a true faith in Jesus Christ our Lord.
     
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