2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

Hi Ed,


Ed:

In the parable of the tares the evil are collected first, burnt, and discarded; the good second. In the parable of the net "gathered the good into vessels, but the bad they cast away" the good was collected first then the bad to be cast away. The common theme of the parables is that the good and bad will be separated and dealt with separately. One should NOT determine the order from parables.


Jim:

I agree. You’re missing my point. My point isn’t the order in which the good and the evil experience what they experience but the fact that both experience what they experience at the end of the world (age), a single coming of the Lord at a single end of the world (age) being experienced two different ways, depending on whether one is good or evil. In contrast, you say that the end of the world (age) PRECEDES what the wicked experience at the coming of the Lord, and you FORCE Matthew 24:31 to PRECEDE verse 24:30 in order to say this.


Jim

 

Hi Ed,


The Bible:

(ASV) Matthew 24:30 AND THEN (KAI TOTE, AND AT THAT TIME) shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: AND THEN (KAI TOTE, AND AT THAT TIME) shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, AND (KAI, AND) they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 AND (KAI, AND) he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, AND (KAI, AND) they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

(ASV) Mark 13:26 AND THEN (KAI TOTE, AND AT THAT TIME) shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 AND THEN (KAI TOTE, AND AT THAT TIME) shall he send forth the angels, AND (KAI, AND) shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.


Jim:

There is no textual basis for you to divide the coming of the Son of man and the gathering together of His elect into two different events occurring at two different times, the later preceding the former. What is clear enough in Matthew 24:30-31 is all the more clear in Mark 13:26-27, namely, that both occur in the same time frame as two aspects of the same event.


Jim

 

Ed, of course you don't think the order of the wheat and tares should be determined from the parables. That would really irritate a pre-trib rapture

 

Brother 1Jim:

WOuld you get together with Bro. PrimePower7? He says
I post too much, you say i post too little.
A common front would be a kind Christiangesture. Thank you.

Here is the scripture evidence that seperates Matthew 24:31
31 from Matthew 24:29-30:

---------------------------------------------

In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. I believe the major
outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.

 

Hi Ed,


Ed:

He says I post too much, you say I post too little.


Jim:

I don’t recall ever saying or even implying that.

As for the rest of your message, all you’ve done is copy and paste your message dated 08/22/05, 09:27pm, from the second page of this thread. You didn’t directly reply to anything that I said in my last two messages to you; all you did was repeat the position that you to choose to hold, ignoring what I said.

In Mark 13:26-27, Jesus says, “AND AT THAT TIME (after that tribulation – verse 13:24) they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. AND AT THAT TIME He will send the angels, AND He will gather together His elect from the farthest part of the earth to the farthest part of heaven.”

In Matthew 24:30-31, Jesus says, “And AT THAT TIME (after the tribulation of those days – verse 24:29) the sign of the Son of man will shine/appear in heaven (or the sky). AND AT THAT TIME all the tribes of the earth will grieve, AND they will see the Son of man coming in/on the clouds of heaven (the sky) with power and great glory. AND He will send His angels with a great trumpet, AND they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of heaven to the farthest part of the same.”

If believing that the gathering together of His elect precedes the coming of the Son of man by several years despite what is said in the passages quoted above makes you happy, and if it makes you happy to believe that the end of the world (age), which Jesus says in Matthew 13 is when the Son of man will send His angels to do their gathering thing both to the good and to the bad in the harvest, marks THE BEGINNING of “that tribulation / the tribulation of those days” that PRECEDES the coming of the Son of man, then I suppose that you’re going to do what makes you happy.


Jim

 

He says I post too much, you say I post too little.

Jim: "I don’t recall ever saying or even implying that."

Jim: "As for the rest of your message, all you’ve done is copy and paste your message dated 08/22/05, 09:27pm, from the second page of this thread. You didn’t directly reply to anything that I said in my last two messages to you; all you did was repeat the position that you to choose to hold, ignoring what I said."

A whole paragraph asking for me to write more stuff?

Of our history of World War II (WW2) we say:

Remember when the day the USofA dropped some atomic bombs
and WW2 ended.

Here is a short history of that "day":

7 May 1945 - Germany surrenders
17 July 1945 - first atomic bomb detonated
------at Alamogordo, New Mexico
6 Aug 1945 - an atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima, Japan
9 Aug 1945 - an atomic bomb droppe don Nagasaki, Japan
14 Aug 1945 - Japan agrees to surrender
2 Sept 1945 - formal surrender of Japan on the
-- battleship USS Missouri in Tokyo harbor.

Things past and things future happen in a 'day'
Actual events may take a longer time.

 

1jim: "If believing that ... despite what is said in the passages
quoted above makes you happy, and if it makes you happy
to believe ... then I suppose that you’re going to do
what makes you happy."

Your ad hominem logical error is noted.

I read you the riot act
-----------------------------

I believe the Bible is the
inerrant written words of God.
It is nonsense for me to
believe that my understanding
of all the Bible is inerrant.

You believe your Bible is the
inerrant written words of God.
It is nonsense for me to
believe that your understanding
of all your Bible is inerrant.

Surely i have respect enough for my
Brother in Christ that i will allow you your
opinion. If further you believe your
opinion, i will allow that also.
But i will receive the same consideration
for my opinion/belief.
I am speaking of my opinion of what the Bible
said versus your opinion of what the Bible said.
What the Bible said is true, what
the Bible means is your opinion or
is my opinion.
Don't get your opinion of what the Bible meant
get confused with what the Bible said.
-----------------------------

There is nothing naturally superior about your
understanding of the Bible over my understanding
of the Bible.

You should have said no more than:
"I believe the Bible cearly teaches ... "

 

1Jim: "There is no textual basis for you to divide
the coming of the Son of man and the gathering
together of His elect into two different events
occuring at two different times, the later preceeding
the former."

Acutally one textual basis is the very subject of this
Topic: 2 Thess 2:1-4. The explination of that
is on the top of page 7 and won't be repeated again.

There are other textual bases.

 

Hi Ed,


Ed:

Things past and things future happen in a 'day.’ Actual events may take a longer time.


The Bible:

(ASV) John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, HE THAT HEARETH MY WORD, AND BELIEVETH HIM THAT SENT ME, HATH ETERNAL LIFE, and cometh not into judgment, but HATH PASSED OUT OF DEATH INTO LIFE. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, THE HOUR COMETH, AND NOW IS, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and THEY THAT HEAR SHALL LIVE.

If the above passage is speaking of salvation, which it appears to be doing, then this is a 2000-year “hour.”

(ASV) John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for THE HOUR COMETH, in which ALL that are in the tombs shall hear his voice, 29 and SHALL COME FORTH; they that have done good, UNTO THE RESURRECTION OF LIFE; and they that have done evil, UNTO THE RESURRECTION OF JUDGMENT.

If what is literally said in Revelation 20 is correct, then these two resurrections are 1000 years apart, making the “hour” in the above passage a 1000-year “hour.”

(ASV) 2 Peter 3:3 ... in the last days mockers shall come ... 4 ... saying, WHERE IS THE PROMISE OF HIS COMING? ... 7 but the heavens that now are, and the earth ... have been stored up for fire ... 8 ... one day is WITH THE LORD as a thousand years, and A THOUSAND YEARS AS ONE DAY. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise ... but is longsuffering to you-ward ... 10 But THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME AS A THIEF; IN THE WHICH THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY WITH A GREAT NOISE, AND THE ELEMENTS SHALL BE DISSOLVED WITH FERVENT HEAT, AND THE EARTH AND THE WORKS THAT ARE THEREIN SHALL BE BURNED UP. 11 ... what manner of persons ought ye to be in [all] holy living and godliness, 12 looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, by reason of which the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for these things, give diligence that ye may be found in peace, without spot and blameless in his sight. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote unto you ...

If what is literally said in Revelation 19:11 – 21:1 is correct, then the DAY described in the passage above is a 1000-year “Day.”

So I understand what you’re saying about time span. However, this has no bearing on the sequence of the events within a given time span. The sequence of the events is exactly what it is stated to be regardless of whether the span of time in which the events take place is short or long, and the language that is used to express the sequence establishes the sequence. We can’t legitimately rearrange the sequence to suit ourselves.

Mark 13:24 But in those days AFTER (META) THAT TRIBULATION (accusative case object of the preposition) the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give her light, 25 and the stars will be falling from the heaven (the sky), and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And AT THAT TIME (TOTE) they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with (meta) great power (genitive case object of the preposition) and glory (genitive case object of the preposition). 27 And AT THAT TIME (TOTE) He will send the angels, and He will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of the earth to the farthest part of heaven.

The sequence established by the language in the above passage places both the coming of the Son of man (tote, at that time) and the gathering together of His elect (tote, at that time) AFTER (the preposition meta with an accusative case object of the preposition) the tribulation regardless of the span of time in which the coming and the gathering occur. What Matthew says in Matthew 24:29-31 is consistent with this.

Further, the use of the adverb “tote” (at that time) establishes the sequence according to the word order in the text. Regardless of the span of time (either long or short), if something is said to occur, and if a second thing is then said to occur “at that time” (tote), then the second thing does not precede the first thing.

Thus, the language in Matthew 24:29-31 and in Mark 13:24-27 does not allow the gathering together of His saints to precede the coming of the Son of man or the coming of the Son of man to precede the tribulation. Like it or not, those are the restrictions of the language itself.


Jim

 

Hi Ed,

I apologize for any disrespect that I've shown you. It is your opinion regarding what the Bible says with which I disagree.

Jim

 

Hi Ed,


Ed:

1Jim: "There is no textual basis for you to divide the coming of the Son of man and the gathering together of His elect into two different events occurring at two different times, the later preceding the former."

Acutely one textual basis is the very subject of this Topic: 2 Thess. 2:1-4. The explanation of that is on the top of page 7 and won't be repeated again. There are other textual bases.


Jim:

A textual basis is what the literal meaning of the language of the text in question requires or at least indicates. There is nothing in the literal meaning of the language in Matthew 24:29-31 or in Mark 13:24-27 or in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 that requires or even indicates that the gathering together of His elect precedes the coming of the Lord. Your choice to believe that the gathering together of His elect precedes the coming of the Lord is made not because of what the literal meaning of the language of the text in question requires or at least indicates but in spite of what it requires or indicates. Your personal interpretation in this matter takes liberty with the language of the text. In fact, it forces a meaning on the text that is contrary to what text literally says; it violates the language. What I’m saying here is not a personal attack on you but an objective observation of your interpretation. Your interpretation does violate the language in the Bible.


Jim

 

Brother Ed, it appears the "therefore" of verse 15 would link it to verse 14. You are very interesting in your private interpretation. godisnowhere=God is now here (rightly dividing)
God is nowhere (wrongly dividing)

 

Hi prophecynut,


prophecynut:

The parables of the weeds and of the net are identical to the parable of the sheep and the goats, Mt. 25. The wheat, good fish and sheep enter the Millennium and the weeds, bad fish and goats are thrown "into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Mt. 13:42,50; 25:41). This judgment occurs on earth at the end of this age with the Second Coming, it has nothing to do with the Rapture of the Church which is composed of only wheat, good fish and sheep. Only the righteous are taken in the Rapture whereas at the Second Coming the wicked are taken into judgment and the righteous are left to enter the earthly kingdom.


Jim:

If what you’re saying is that those who participate in the first resurrection are exempt from the second death, I agree. Beyond that, I don’t understand your point.


Jim

 

Feel free to tell me the Book and verse so i
don't have to spend a $100 hour researching
what possibly you might be talking about???

That will be "private interpretation, Sir" to
you Thank you for humoring me.

 

Prophecynut: "You cannot split the body of Christ by having
the living translated before the Trib and the righteous
dead in Christ resurrected at the first resurrection."

God can do it!
God will do it.
It is God's plan to save as many Jews as possible.

My Messianic Jewish brothers say that when the last gentile
who is going to get saved, gets saved, then Jesus will
Rapture/resurrect the Gentile Age Church out of the world.
Follows will be God's Wrath AKA: The Tribulation Period,
God's plan to save the maximum number of Jews possible.

 

Prophecynut: "You cannot split the body of Christ by having
the living translated before the Trib and the righteous
dead in Christ resurrected at the first resurrection."

BTW, the living Gentile Age saints/church being raptured/resurrected
before the Tribulation is part of the FIRST RESURRECTION.
The righteous dead in Christ being resurrected
is part of the FIRST RESURRECTION. All the First Resurrection
takes place in ONE DAY: a seven year day.
BTW 'first' and 'one' mean two different things.
The term is 'first resurrection' not 'first and only resurrection'.
(see Rev 20)

I perform quality assurance checks on technical manuals.
My system requires that a phrase or word must always
mean (point to) the same thing every time it is used.
Generic references, figurative references, and pronouns
are taboo

For example:

--- turn the 'A' Dial to 30

is alright, but the following are WRONG

--- turn a dial to 30
--- turn the Dial to 30

The Bible does not have such requiremetns.

In fact "Second Coming" may refer to the
multiple events:

2Th 2:1 (KJV1611 Edition
Now wee beseech you, brethren, by
(1) - the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ, and
(2) - by our gathering together vnto him,

"Second Coming" can also mean only
'the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ' only.

BTW, 'second' is no more always meaning 'one'
than does 'first'.

 

ED THIS IS ALL PRIVATE INTERPRETATION! 7 years is one day? Common!

My last email was about Matthew 24. You said there was a break betwen verses 14 and 15 as they were answering different questions.

You talk about wrestling the Scriptures. You've got it all figured out don't you? Ed, Revelation 20 says there is 1000 years between the First and the Second Resurrections, not 1007. You are running scared with your precious, pre-trib rapture! Get a grip!

 

Hi prophecynut,


prophecynut:

Only THE RIGHTEOUS are taken in THE RAPTURE ... Those taken up in THE RAPTURE are ALL RIGHTEOUS and INVOLVES both DEAD (THE RESURRECTION OF THE RIGHTEOUS DEAD – JIM) and alive saints in Christ ... THE RAPTURE which involves THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD (THE RIGHTEOUS DEAD – JIM) and translation of the living cannot be at THE RESURRECTION OF THE RIGHTEOUS DEAD, Scripture does not support it.


Jim:

You seem to be contradicting yourself here, as I’ve tried to show by the uppercase print. First you say that the Rapture involves the resurrection of the righteous dead. Then you say that the Rapture does not occur at the resurrection of the righteous dead.


prophecynut:

You cannot split the body of Christ by having the living translated before the Trib and the righteous dead in Christ resurrected at the first resurrection.


Jim:

I agree that all who belong to Christ, whether dead or living, receive resurrection bodies at the coming of the Lord, as stated in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 and 50-54 and in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. However, I see no indication that there will be more than one future coming of the Lord. When He comes back, He comes back; that’s it.

The Bible doesn’t describe Jesus as a yoyo, first leaving (His ascension), then coming back, then leaving, then coming back. It only describes Him leaving (His ascension) and then coming back (the coming of the Lord).

There is no Biblical evidence that “the Son of man coming” in Matthew 24:30 and “His coming” in 1 Corinthians 15:23 and “the coming of the Lord” in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 and “the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ” in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and “His coming” in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 are not all references to the same event.


prophecynut:

Since Scripture states the Church is kept from the hour of trial (Rev. 3:10) ...


Jim:

Actually, Revelation 3:10 says that it is “the church in Philadelphia” (3:7) which is to be “kept from the hour of trial” (3:10, ASV), which was one of the seven actual Asian churches to whom John sent his Revelation: “John, to the seven churches which are in Asia” (1:4).

All seven messages to the seven churches in Asia can’t be addressed to the entire Church, as the seven messages differ from one another far too much for all of the seven messages to be able to describe all members of the same group (the Church) at any given point in time.

Neither can any one of these seven messages describe the entire Church at any given point in time. These seven messages certainly were not able to describe the entire Church, which included all seven actual first-century churches in Asia to whom the Revelation was literally sent, at the time that John wrote the Revelation.

Think about it. If each of the seven messages described the entire Church at a given point in history, then one of the seven messages would have to be able to describe the entire Church at the time that John wrote the Revelation, which would mean that one of the seven messages would have to be able to describe all seven actual first-century churches in Asia, which would mean that one of the seven messages (the one message that described the entire Church at the time that John wrote the Revelation) would have to be able to encompass all seven messages (that were sent to the seven actual churches in Asia at the time that John wrote the Revelation), which none of the seven messages is able to do, because the seven messages are so different from one another.

So the theory that each of the seven messages describes the entire Church at a different point in history doesn’t work. If none of the seven messages was individually able to describe the entire Church at the time that John wrote the Revelation, then there is no reason to think that any one of the seven messages is individually able to describe the entire Church at any other point in time either.

Jesus’ angel says in Revelation 3:10 (ASV), “Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that [hour] which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” Does the statement “thou didst keep the word of my patience” describe all seven actual first-century churches in Asia to whom John addressed his Revelation? No. Some of those seven actual first-century churches “kept the word of His patience” and some didn’t. The actual first-century church Sardis (3:1-6), which was described as “dead” (3:1), certainly didn’t “keep the word of His patience” back in the first century. In fact, there has never been a point in history in which the ENTIRE Church has fit the description of any one of these seven messages. So the idea that Revelation 3:10 applies to the ENTIRE Church at a given point in history is completely unfounded.

So the most that can be said with certainty is that each of these seven messages applies to the specific first-century church in Asia to which it is specifically addressed.

The word “peirasmou” (of trial) in Revelation 3:10 is used in 1 Corinthians 10:13, where Paul says (ASV), “... [God] will with the temptation (peirasmw) make also the way of escape, that ye may be able to endure it.” Here, Paul says that one escapes a “temptation/trial” by ENDURING it, that is, by experiencing it without succumbing to it.

However, Revelation 3:10 says, “I also will KEEP THEE FROM THE HOUR of trial.” This certainly seems to suggest an avoidance of the stated experience. However, it does not suggest an absence from the planet. In John 12:27, Jesus says, “Father, SAVE ME FROM THIS HOUR. But for this cause came I unto this hour.” Jesus doesn’t appear to be asking to be removed from the planet. He only appears to be asking to be allowed to avoid the experience of that hour to which He had come.

In Revelation 3:10, Jesus’ angel says (ASV), “... I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that [hour] which is to come upon the whole world, TO TRY THEM THAT DWELL UPON THE EARTH.”

Since Revelation describes believers in Jesus Christ on earth during the reign of the beast, and since a believer in Christ is by definition a member of the Church, regardless of what anyone may say to the contrary, what is it that all who dwell on the earth will experience except those who are believers in Jesus Christ?

(ASV) Matthew 2415 WHEN THEREFORE YE SEE THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION, WHICH WAS SPOKEN OF THROUGH DANIEL THE PROPHET, STANDING IN THE HOLY PLACE ... 21 ... THEN SHALL BE GREAT TRIBULATION, SUCH AS HATH NOT BEEN FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD UNTIL NOW, NO, NOR EVER SHALL BE. 22 And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but FOR THE ELECT'S SAKE THOSE DAYS SHALL BE SHORTENED. 23 THEN (TOTE, AT THAT TIME) if any man shall say unto YOU, Lo, here is the Christ, or, Here; BELIEVE [IT] NOT. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show GREAT SIGNS AND WONDERS; so as TO LEAD ASTRAY, IF POSSIBLE, EVEN THE ELECT. 25 Behold, I have told you beforehand. 26 If therefore they shall say unto YOU, Behold, he is in the wilderness; GO NOT FORTH: Behold, he is in the inner chambers; BELIEVE [IT] NOT. 27 For as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and IS SEEN even unto the west; SO SHALL BE THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN. ... 29 ... AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 and THEN (TOTE, AT THAT TIME) shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and THEN (TOTE, AT THAT TIME) shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and THEY SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS of heaven with power and great glory. 31 AND (KAI, AND) he shall send forth his angels WITH A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, AND (KAI, AND) THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And THEN SHALL BE REVEALED THE LAWLESS ONE, WHOM THE LORD JESUS SHALL SLAY WITH THE BREATH OF HIS MOUTH, AND BRING TO NOUGHT BY THE MANIFESTATION OF HIS COMING; 9 [even he], whose coming is according to the working of Satan WITH ALL POWER AND SIGNS AND LYING WONDERS, 10 and WITH ALL DECEIT OF UNRIGHTEOUSNESS FOR THEM THAT PERISH; BECAUSE THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH, THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. 11 And for this cause GOD SENDETH THEM A WORKING OF ERROR, THAT THEY SHOULD BELIEVE A LIE: 12 that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

(ASV) Revelation 3:10 Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I ALSO WILL KEEP THEE FROM THE HOUR OF TRIAL, THAT [HOUR] WHICH IS TO COME UPON THE WHOLE WORLD, TO TRY THEM THAT DWELL UPON THE EARTH.

(ASV) Revelation 13:8 And ALL THAT DWELL ON THE EARTH SHALL WORSHIP HIM, [EVERY ONE] WHOSE NAME HATH NOT BEEN WRITTEN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD IN THE BOOK OF LIFE OF THE LAMB THAT HATH BEEN SLAIN. ... 14 And [the false prophet] DECEIVETH THEM THAT DWELL ON THE EARTH by reason of THE SIGNS which it was given him to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast who hath the stroke of the sword and lived. 15 And it was given [unto him] to give breath to it ... that the image of the beast should ... cause that AS MANY AS SHOULD NOT WORSHIP THE IMAGE OF THE BEAST SHOULD BE KILLED. ... 17:8 ... And THEY THAT DWELL ON THE EARTH SHALL WONDER, [THEY] WHOSE NAME HATH NOT BEEN WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast, how that he was, and is not, and shall come. ... 20:4 ... and [I saw] the souls of THEM THAT HAD BEEN BEHEADED FOR THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS, AND FOR THE WORD OF GOD, AND SUCH AS WORSHIPPED NOT THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, AND RECEIVED NOT THE MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEAD AND UPON THEIR HAND; and THEY LIVED, AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS.

So, despite what I said earlier about Revelation 3:10 not being applicable to the ENTIRE Church, if one is INTENT on believing that Revelation 3:10 applies to the ENTIRE Church as opposed to applying specifically to the first-century church in Philadelphia, it would be possible that the experience that will be experienced by ALL WHO DWELL ON THE EARTH except those living on earth who believe in Jesus Christ (the Church) will be THE DECEPTION ASSOCIATED WITH THE BEAST, as described by Jesus in Matthew 24 and by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2 and by John in Revelation 13 and 17, as well as perhaps by John in Revelation 3:10.


prophecynut:

Since Scripture states the Church is ... rescued from God's wrath ...


Paul:

(ASV) Romans 2:5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself WRATH (ORGE) IN THE DAY OF WRATH (ORGE) AND REVELATION OF THE RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT OF GOD; 6 who will render TO EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS: 7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: 8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, [shall be] wrath and indignation, 9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek; 10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek: 11 for there is no respect of persons with God.

(NOTICE THAT THE WRATH IN THIS PASSAGE IS IMPOSED ACCORDING TNE’S WORKS, WHICH IS CONSISTENT WITH THE JUDGEMENT DESCRIBED IN REVELATION 20:11-15.)

(ASV) Romans 5:9 Much more then, BEING NOW JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, SHALL WE BE SAVED FROM THE WRATH (ORGE) [OF GOD] THROUGH HIM.

(ASV) 1 Thessalonians 1:10 ... to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] JESUS, WHO DELIVERETH US FROM THE WRATH (ORGE) TO COME.

(ASV) 1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, since we are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For GOD APPOINTED US NOT INTO WRATH (ORGE), BUT UNTO THE OBTAINING OF SALVATION THROUGH OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, 10 who died for us, that, WHETHER WE WAKE (ARE PHYSICALLY ALIVE) OR SLEEP (ARE PHYSICALLY DEAD), we should live together with him.

(NOTICE THAT PAUL APPLIES THE NOT BEING APPOINTED TO WRATH NOT ONLY TO THE LIVING IN CHRIST BUT TO THE DEAD IN CHRIST AS WELL, WHICH PRECLUDES THIS WRATH FROM BEING THE TRIBULATION PERIOD, WHICH EFFECTS ONLY THE LIVING. PAUL IS OBVIOUSLY REFERRING TO THE WRATH OF GOD’S JUDGMENT AS DESCRIBED IN REVELATION 20:11-15.)

(ASV) Revelation 20:6 BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION: OVER THESE THE SECOND DEATH HATH NO POWER; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. ... 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and THE DEAD WERE JUDGED OUT OF THE THINGS WHICH WERE WRITTEN IN THE BOOKS, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS. 13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and THEY WERE JUDGED EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS. 14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH, [EVEN] THE LAKE OF FIRE. 15 AND IF ANY WAS NOT FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE, HE WAS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.


Jim:

I see no reason to think that Paul’s references to “wrath” (orge) in Romans 5:9 and 1 Thessalonians 1:10 are different than his references to “wrath” (orge) in Romans 2:5-11 and 1 Thessalonians 5:8-10, where it’s pretty clear that he is referring to the wrath of God as described in Revelation 20:11-15, that is, the lake of fire, which applies to all people, not just a single generation of people and not just the living.


prophecynut (previous message):

The parables of the weeds and of the net are identical to the parable of the sheep and the goats, Mt. 25. The wheat, good fish and sheep enter the Millennium and the weeds, bad fish and goats are thrown "into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Mt. 13:42,50; 25:41). This judgment occurs on earth at the end of this age with the Second Coming, it has nothing to do with the Rapture of the Church which is composed of only wheat, good fish and sheep. Only the righteous are taken in the Rapture whereas AT THE SECOND COMING THE WICKED ARE TAKEN INTO JUDGMENT AND THE RIGHTEOUS ARE LEFT TO ENTER THE EARTHLY KINGDOM.


prophecynut (subsequent message):

Only THE RIGHTEOUS are taken in THE RAPTURE ... Those taken up in THE RAPTURE are ALL RIGHTEOUS and INVOLVES both DEAD (THE RESURRECTION OF THE RIGHTEOUS DEAD – JIM) and alive saints in Christ ... THE RAPTURE which involves THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD (THE RIGHTEOUS DEAD – JIM) and translation of the living cannot be at THE RESURRECTION OF THE RIGHTEOUS DEAD, Scripture does not support it.


Jim:

You seem to be suggesting here that the wheat in Matthew 13 and the sheep in Matthew 25 are non-resurrected people who belong to Christ as opposed to those who participate in the resurrection of the saints at the coming of the Lord.


The Bible:

(ASV) Matthew 13:24 Another parable set he before them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man that sowed good seed in his field: 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares also among the wheat, and went away. 26 But when the blade sprang up and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 And the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? whence then hath it tares? 28 And he said unto them, An enemy hath done this. And the servants say unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he saith, Nay; lest haply while ye gather up the tares, ye root up the wheat with them. 30 LET BOTH GROW TOGETHER UNTIL THE HARVEST: AND IN THE TIME OF THE HARVEST I WILL SAY TO THE REAPERS, GATHER UP FIRST THE TARES, AND BIND THEM IN BUNDLES TO BURN THEM; BUT GATHER THE WHEAT INTO MY BARN. ... 36 Then he left the multitudes, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Explain unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 And he answered and said, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 and the field is the world; and THE GOOD SEED, THESE ARE THE SONS OF THE KINGDOM; and THE TARES ARE THE SONS OF THE EVIL [ONE]; 39 and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and THE HARVEST IS THE END OF THE WORLD; and the reapers are angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; SO SHALL IT BE IN THE END OF THE WORLD. 41 THE SON OF MAN SHALL SEND FORTH HIS ANGELS, AND THEY SHALL GATHER OUT OF HIS KINGDOM ALL THINGS THAT CAUSE STUMBLING, AND THEM THAT DO INIQUITY, 42 AND SHALL CAST THEM INTO THE FURNACE OF FIRE: THERE SHALL BE THE WEEPING AND THE GNASHING OF TEETH. 43 THEN SHALL THE RIGHTEOUS SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN IN THE KINGDOM OF THEIR FATHER. He that hath ears, let him hear. ... 47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 48 which, when it was filled, they drew up on the beach; and THEY SAT DOWN, AND GATHERED THE GOOD INTO VESSELS, BUT THE BAD THEY CAST AWAY. 49 SO SHALL IT BE IN THE END OF THE WORLD: THE ANGELS SHALL COME FORTH, AND SEVER THE WICKED FROM AMONG THE RIGHTEOUS, 50 AND SHALL CAST THEM INTO THE FURNACE OF FIRE: THERE SHALL BE THE WEEPING AND THE GNASHING OF TEETH.

(ASV) Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what watch THE THIEF WAS COMING, he would have watched, and would not have suffered HIS HOUSE TO BE BROKEN THROUGH. 44 Therefore BE YE ALSO READY; for in an hour that ye think not THE SON OF MAN COMETH. 45 Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath set over his household, to give them their food in due season? 46 Blessed is THAT SERVANT, WHOM HIS LORD WHEN HE COMETH SHALL FIND SO DOING. 47 VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, THAT HE WILL SET HIM OVER ALL THAT HE HATH. 48 But if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord tarrieth; 49 and shall begin to beat his fellow-servants, and shall eat and drink with the drunken; 50 THE LORD OF THAT SERVANT SHALL COME IN A DAY WHEN HE EXPECTETH NOT, AND IN AN HOUR WHEN HE KNOWETH NOT, 51 b[AND SHALL CUT HIM ASUNDER[/b], AND APPOINT HIS PORTION WITH THE HYPOCRITES: THERE SHALL BE THE WEEPING AND THE GNASHING OF TEETH.

(ASV) Matthew 25:1 Then shall THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN be likened unto ten virgins, who took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were foolish, and five were wise. ... 6 But at midnight there is a cry, Behold, the bridegroom! Come ye forth to meet him. ... 10 And while [the five foolish] went away to buy, THE BRIDEGROOM CAME; AND THEY THAT WERE READY WENT IN WITH HIM TO THE MARRIAGE FEAST: and THE DOOR WAS SHUT. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, LORD, LORD, OPEN TO US. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I KNOW YOU NOT. 13 Watch therefore, for ye know not the day nor the hour.

(ASV) Matthew 25:14 For [it is] as [when] a man, going into another country, called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. ... 19 Now after a long time THE LORD OF THOSE SERVANTS COMETH, and maketh a reckoning with them. 20 And he that received the five talents came and brought other five talents ... 21 His lord said unto him ... I WILL SET THEE OVER MANY THINGS ... 22 And he also that [received] the two talents came and said ... I have gained other two talents. 23 His lord said unto him ... I WILL SET THEE OVER MANY THINGS ... 24 And he also that had received the one talent came and said ... 25 ... I was afraid, and went away and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, thou hast thine own. 26 But his lord answered ... 28 Take ye away therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him that hath the ten talents. ... 30 And CAST YE OUT THE UNPROFITABLE SERVANT INTO THE OUTER DARKNESS: THERE SHALL BE THE WEEPING AND THE GNASHING OF TEETH.

(ASV) Matthew 25:31 But WHEN THE SON OF MAN SHALL COME IN HIS GLORY, AND ALL THE ANGELS WITH HIM, THEN SHALL HE SIT ON THE THRONE OF HIS GLORY: 32 and before him shall be gathered ALL THE NATIONS: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats; 33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, INHERIT THE KINGDOM PREPARED FOR YOU FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD ... 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, DEPART FROM ME, YE CURSED, INTO THE ETERNAL FIRE WHICH IS PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS ... 46 And THESE SHALL GO AWAY INTO ETERNAL PUNISHMENT: BUT THE RIGHTEOUS INTO ETERNAL LIFE.

(ASV) 1 Corinthians 15:20 But now hath Christ been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of them that are asleep. ... 22 For as in Adam all die, so also IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, AT HIS COMING. ... 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: WE ALL SHALL NOT SLEEP, BUT WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, THEN SHALL COME TO PASS THE SAYING THAT IS WRITTEN, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY.

(ASV) Revelation 2:26 And HE THAT OVERCOMETH, AND HE THAT KEEPETH MY WORKS UNTO THE END, TO HIM WILL I GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS: 27 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to shivers; as I also have received of my Father: 28 and I will give him the morning star. 29 He that hath an ear, let him hear WHAT THE SPIRIT SAITH TO THE CHURCHES.

(ASV) Revelation 3:21 HE THAT OVERCOMETH, I WILL GIVE TO HIM TO SIT DOWN WITH ME IN MY THRONE, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear WHAT THE SPIRIT SAITH TO THE CHURCHES.

(ASV) Revelation 5:9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for THOU WAS SLAIN, AND DIDST PURCHASE UNTO GOD WITH THY BLOOD [MEN] OF EVERY TRIBE, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE, AND NATION, 10 and madest them [to be] unto our God a kingdom and priests; AND THEY (WILL) REIGN UPON EARTH.

(ASV) Revelation 19:14 And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white [and] pure. 15 And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it HE SHOULD SMITE THE NATIONS: AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty.

(ASV) Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and THEY LIVED, AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. 5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION: over these the second death hath no power; but THEY SHALL BE PRIESTS OF GOD AND OF CHRIST, AND SHALL REIGN WITH HIM A THOUSAND YEARS.


Jim:

The people who are given authority to reign (for a thousand years), who are set over many things, are those who participate in the first resurrection. The people over whom they reign are the nations, who are not friendly toward Christ but must be forced submit to Him; He rules them with a rod of iron. Zechariah 14 says that they are punished if they don’t comply. So the non-resurrected people on earth during the Millennium are not the righteous but the unrighteous, They are those who survive out of all of the nations that fought against Christ, as Zechariah 14 says. When Jesus comes back, he sets the good servants over all that He has (the resurrected righteous) and he consigns the wick to weeping and gnashing of teeth. The sheep in Matthew 25 are said to “inherit the kingdom.” Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15 that “flesh and blood does not inherit the kingdom;” only those who are “changed” inherit the kingdom. So the sheep are not non-resurrected people but resurrected/changed people. In all of the parables, Jesus treats the judgment and reward of the righteous and the judgment and punishment of the wicked as if it all occurs on the very day that He comes back. However, a comparison of all of these parables with what is said in Revelation 19:11 – 21:1 shows that they describe the same thing, the only difference being that what is depicted as if it occurs in a 24-hour day in the parables is stated to span 1000 years in Revelation 19:11 – 21:1.


Jim