2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

I agrtee that you want it to go against my view. That part "I get".

But then "confusingly" you make the argument that Matt 24:21 is the rapture - AND THE TEXT of Matt 24 SHOWS that vs 31 comes AFTER the tribulation!

I pointed this out explicitly in my previous post.

What is "not to get"?

Don't you see how that might come as a suprise to me -- since up to that point you had been making the argument for a pre-trib rapture??

In Christ,

Bob

 

Are we "Agreeing again"??

You just placed the rapture AFTER the point where ALL EYES see Christ
</font>[/QUOTE]See the quote of MAtt 24 ABOVE to SEE where your claims for vs 31 place the rapture resurrection.

This is not me - it is you.

[/QUOTE]


Did you not notice this?

Matt 24
29 ""But immediately after the tribulation of those days ... they will gather

 

Hi Ed,


Ed:

I speak of the use of polysyndeton, a rhetorical device using the English 'and' or the Greek 'kai' instead of the Microsoft square or dot. Do we really find it strange that a prophetic scripture uses a rhetorical device.


Jim:

Polysyndeton, the excessive use of conjunctions, such as when I say that Jesus plainly AND clearly AND explicitly states that the coming of the Lord and the gathering together of His elect will occur AFTER the tribulation, does not in any way effect the sequence of the events as stated in the text nor excuse your personal alteration of that stated sequence. The gathering together of His elect can no more precede the tribulation in Matthew 24:29-31 and in Mark 13:24-27 (quoted below) than the Lord saying to the righteous, “inherit the kingdom,” and to the wicked, “depart from Me,” can precede His coming in Matthew 25:31-41 (quoted below).


The Bible:

(ASV) Matthew 24:15 WHEN THEREFORE YE (HIS ELECT) SEE THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION ... STANDING IN THE HOLY PLACE ... 21 ... THEN (TOTE, AT THAT TIME) SHALL BE GREAT TRIBULATION, SUCH AS HATH NOT BEEN FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD UNTIL NOW, NO, NOR EVER SHALL BE. 22 And except those days had been shortened, NO FLESH WOULD HAVE BEEN SAVED: BUT FOR THE ELECT'S (HIS ELECT’S, THE REFERENT OF “YOU”) SAKE THOSE DAYS SHALL BE SHORTENED. 23 THEN (TOTE, AT THAT TIME) IF ANY MAN SHALL SAY UNTO YOU (HIS ELECT), LO, HERE IS THE CHRIST, OR, HERE; BELIEVE [IT] NOT. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as TO LEAD ASTRAY, IF POSSIBLE, EVEN THE ELECT (HIS ELECT, THE REFERENT OF “YOU,” WHO WILL BE PRESENT TO SEE THESE THINGS). 25 Behold, I have told you beforehand. 26 If therefore they shall say unto YOU (HIS ELECT), Behold, he is in the wilderness; GO NOT FORTH: Behold, he is in the inner chambers; BELIEVE [IT] NOT. 27 For AS THE LIGHTNING cometh forth from the east, and IS SEEN even unto the west; SO SHALL BE THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN. ... 29 But immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days the sun shall be darkened, AND the moon shall not give her light, AND the stars shall fall from heaven, AND the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 AND THEN (TOTE, AT THAT TIME) shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: AND THEN (TOTE, AT THAT TIME) shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, AND they SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS of heaven with power and great glory. 31 AND he shall send forth his angels WITH A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, AND THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

(ASV) Matthew 25:31 BUT when the Son of man shall come in his glory, AND all the angels with him, THEN (TOTE, AT THAT TIME) shall he sit on the throne of his glory: 32 AND before him shall be gathered all the nations: AND he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats; 33 AND he shall set the sheep on his right hand, BUT the goats on the left. 34 THEN (TOTE, AT THAT TIME) shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, INHERIT THE KINGDOM prepared for you from the foundation of the world: ... 41 THEN (TOTE, AT THAT TIME) shall he say ALSO unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels ...

(ASV) Mark 13:24 But in those days, AFTER THAT TRIBULATION, the sun shall be darkened, AND the moon shall not give her light, 25 AND the stars shall be falling from heaven, AND the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken. 26 AND THEN (TOTE, AT THAT TIME) SHALL THEY SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory. 27 AND THEN (TOTE, AT THAT TIME) SHALL HE SEND FORTH THE ANGELS, AND SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

(ASV) 1 Corinthians 15:19 If we have only hoped in Christ in this life, we are of all men most pitiable. 20 But now hath Christ been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of them that are asleep. 21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, AT HIS COMING. ... 42 So also is THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 it is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual [body]. ... 50 Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: WE ALL SHALL NOT SLEEP, BUT WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, THEN (TOTE, AT THAT TIME) SHALL COME TO PASS THE SAYING THAT IS WRITTEN, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY.

(ASV) 1 Thessalonians 4:13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, CONCERNING THEM THAT FALL ASLEEP; THAT YE SORROW NOT, even as the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so THEM ALSO THAT ARE FALLEN ASLEEP IN JESUS WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that WE THAT ARE ALIVE, THAT ARE LEFT UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD, SHALL IN NO WISE PRECEDE THEM THAT ARE FALLEN ASLEEP. 16 For THE LORD HIMSELF SHALL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST; 17 THEN (EPEITA, AFTERWARD) WE THAT ARE ALIVE, THAT ARE LEFT, SHALL TOGETHER WITH THEM BE CAUGHT UP IN THE CLOUDS, TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore COMFORT ONE ANOTHER (CONCERNING THE FATE OF THE DEAD IN CHRIST) WITH THESE WORDS. 5:1 But CONCERNING THE TIMES AND THE SEASONS (OF WHAT HAS JUST BEEN DISCUSSED IN VERSES 4:13-18), brethren, ye have no need that aught be written unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD SO COMETH AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT (BRINGING DESTRUCTION, COMPARE JOHN 10:10). 3 When they are saying, Peace and safety (compare Revelation 11:10), THEN (TOTE, AT THAT TIME) SUDDEN DESTRUCTION COMETH UPON THEM, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall in no wise escape. 4 BUT YE, BRETHREN, ARE NOT IN DARKNESS, THAT THAT DAY SHOULD OVERTAKE YOU AS A THIEF (BRINGING DESTRUCTION; IT WILL OVERTAKE THEM, BUT NOT AS A THIEF, BRINGING DESTRUCTION TO THEM; RATHER, IT WILL BEING SALVATION TO THEM, AS DESCRIBED IN VERSE 4:13-18): 5 for ye are all sons of light, and sons of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep, as do the rest, but let us watch and be sober. ... 9 For GOD APPOINTED US NOT INTO WRATH (ORGE, THE LAKE OF FIRE, THE SECOND DEATH, COMPARE ROMANS 2:5-11 AND REVELATION 20:11-15), BUT UNTO THE OBTAINING OF SALVATION THROUGH OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST (COMPARE REVELATION 20:6; THOSE WHO PARTICIPATE IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION ARE EXEMPT FROM THE SECOND DEATH, THE LAKE OF FIRE), 10 who died for us, that, WHETHER WE WAKE OR SLEEP (THE SALVATION OF WHICH PAUL SPEAKS, THE FIRST RESURRECTION, AND THE WRATH OF WHICH PAUL SPEAKS, THE SECOND DEATH, EFFECT PEOPLE REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY ARE NOW PHYSICALLY ALIVE OR DEAD), we should live together with him.

(ASV) 2 Thessalonians 1:4 ... we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions which ye endure; 5 [which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God; to the end THAT YE MAY BE COUNTED WORTHY OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD, for which ye also suffer: 6 if so be that IT IS RIGHTEOUS THING WITH GOD TO RECOMPENSE AFFLICTION TO THEM THAT AFFLICT YOU, 7 AND TO YOU THAT ARE AFFLICTED REST WITH US (THE SAME COMING OF THE LORD BRINGS BOTH DESTRUCTION TO THE WICKED AND REST/SALVATION TO THE RIGHTEOUS), AT THE REVELATION OF THE LORD JESUS FROM HEAVEN WITH THE ANGELS OF HIS POWER IN FLAMING FIRE, 8 RENDERING VENGEANCE TO THEM THAT KNOW NOT GOD, AND TO THEM THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS: 9 who shall suffer punishment, [even] eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 WHEN HE SHALL COME TO BE GLORIFIED IN HIS SAINTS, and to be marvelled at in all them that believed (because our testimony unto you was believed) IN THAT DAY.

(ASV) 2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, touching THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, AND OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM; 2 ... that ye BE NOT QUICKLY SHAKEN from your mind, NOR YET BE TROUBLED, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, AS THAT THE DAY OF THE LORD IS JUST AT HAND; 3 let no man beguile you in any wise: for [it will not be,] EXCEPT the falling away come first, and THE MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED ... 8 ... WHOM THE LORD JESUS SHALL SLAY with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nought BY THE MANIFESTATION OF HIS COMING (THE SAME COMING OF THE LORD AT WHICH HIS ELECT ARE GATHERED TOGETHER TO HIM BRINGS DESTRUCTION TO THE MAN OF SIN) ;

(ASV) Revelation 20:4 And I SAW THRONES, AND THEY SAT UPON THEM, AND JUDGMENT WAS GIVEN UNTO THEM: AND [I SAW] THE SOULS OF THEM THAT HAD BEEN BEHEADED FOR THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS, AND FOR THE WORD OF GOD, AND SUCH AS WORSHIPPED NOT THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, AND RECEIVED NOT THE MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEAD AND UPON THEIR HAND; AND THEY LIVED, AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. 5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. 6 BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION: OVER THESE THE SECOND DEATH HATH NO POWER; BUT THEY SHALL BE PRIESTS OF GOD AND OF CHRIST, AND SHALL REIGN WITH HIM A THOUSAND YEARS.


Jim

 

1jim: "Polysyndeton, the excessive use of conjunctions, such as when I say that Jesus plainly AND clearly AND explicitly states that the coming of the Lord and the gathering together of His elect will occur AFTER the tribulation, does not in any way effect the sequence of the events as stated in the text nor excuse your personal alteration of that stated sequence."

Sorry, your sentence is so complex that it defys
assignment of a TRUE or FALSE. You some kind
of slick lawyer?

I will make a few comments on the phrases of
your statement.

1jim: "Polysyndeton, the excessive use of conjunctions,
... "

THis is one negative definition of the term
'polysyndeton'. I like the positive applications
that are used God's Holy Written Word of prophecy
as hope giving for the future of the Christians.


1jim: " ... such as when I say that Jesus plainly AND clearly AND explicitly states that the coming of the Lord and the gathering together of His elect will occur AFTER the tribulation, ...

This is a good example of a polysyndeton, but
a misinterpertation of Matthew 24.

1jim: " ... does not in any way effect the sequence of the events as stated in the text ..."

Exactly, the polysyndeton doesn't effect the
sequence of events. The polysyndeton is only
a communication tool used to bring hope to
faithful Christians. Please don't use the dark
side of Polysndetons to squash hope. Thank you.

1jim: " ... nor excuse your personal alteration of that stated sequence."

1. Your personal insult is noted, but will proably be
forgiven should you repent of it.

2. I made no 'personal alteration' AND it is
insulting to suggest it AND is a personal attack
against me AND is unethical a form of debate.

3. It is the reading of Matthew 24:3 which dictates
that which some call an 'alteration'
that I have performed. BTW, that is
the correct interpertation of the matter.
Jesus answered the three questions of the disciples.
The order in which he answered the questions is
the order in which they were asked. Confusing
apparently to some of us is that the order
Jesus used was NOT the same order as the events
will happen.

I'd probably confuse the whole history class if
they asked me to "tell us what is important
about World War One, the Korean war, and
World War Two" AND i answered them in the order
the events came down instead of the order in
which they asked the questions.

The understanding of these events as i have described
them above in no way contradicts any of the
passages you have repeatedly quoted. In fact,
my description of the sequence of events
deletes some of the imposibilites that are added
by the one and only one FIRST resurrection
fallacy. There is a rapture of maybe 200 Million
persons (10% of the called-Christians)
and a Resurrection of maybe 2 Billion persons
(20% of the all-ages called CHristians) -
this is before the Tribualtion period.
After the Tribulation period there might
be a rapture of a couple of thousand souls and
a resurrection of a few million tribulation saints.
Which is the BIG rapture/resurrection?

 

BobRyan: "Did you not notice this?

Matt 24
29 ""But immediately after the tribulation of those days ... they will gather//

Yes, and if you read my writing above you
will find that Matthew 24:29-30 are all events
that happen immediately after the
Tribualtion of those days. In fact, the answer
that the disciples sought, the SIGN of
the Second Coming of our Lord and Savior Messiah
Yeshua -- the sign of His coming in power and
glory to defeat the antichrist and the
the foes of Christ - that sign of His coming
is THE TRIBULATION PERIOD.

The Tribulation is not a sign of the
Rapture of the Gentile Age Church, the Rapture
of the Gentile Age Church is a sign that
the Tribulation period has started.

 

Hi Ed,


Ed:

Your personal insult is noted, but will probably be forgiven should you repent of it. I made no 'personal alteration' AND it is insulting to suggest it AND is a personal attack against me AND is unethical a form of debate.


Matthew and Mark:

(ASV) Matthew 24:29 But immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days the sun shall be darkened, AND the moon shall not give her light, AND the stars shall fall from heaven, AND the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 AND THEN (TOTE, AT THAT TIME) shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: AND THEN (TOTE, AT THAT TIME) shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, AND they SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS of heaven with power and great glory. 31 AND he shall send forth his angels WITH A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, AND THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

(ASV) Mark 13:24 But in those days, AFTER THAT TRIBULATION, the sun shall be darkened, AND the moon shall not give her light, 25 AND the stars shall be falling from heaven, AND the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken. 26 AND THEN (TOTE, AT THAT TIME) SHALL THEY SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory. 27 AND THEN (TOTE, AT THAT TIME) SHALL HE SEND FORTH THE ANGELS, AND SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.


Jim:

There is nothing to repent, because I never insulted you, because I merely made the objective observation that in forcing the gathering together of His elect to precede the tribulation in the two passages above, you are altering the explicitly stated sequence of the events.


Ed:

It is the reading of Matthew 24:3 which dictates that which some call an 'alteration' that I have performed.


Jim:

As you have just said, you have in fact performed an alteration.


Ed:

BTW, that is the correct interpretation of the matter.


Jim:

Whenever anyone performs such an alteration of what is explicitly stated in the Biblical text as you have performed, he or she always rationalizes his or her alteration as being the correct interpretation.


Ed:

Jesus answered the three questions of the disciples. The order in which he answered the questions is the order in which they were asked. Confusing apparently to some of us is that the order Jesus used was NOT the same order as the events will happen.


Matthew:

(ASV) Matthew 24:3 ... the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, (1) when shall these things be (the destruction of the temple)? And (2) what [shall be] the sign of thy coming and of the end of the world?


Jim:

I see only two questions, not three. In the second question, there is one sign for His coming and the end of the world, because His coming IS the end of the world. As far as I can see, Jesus never answers the first question, assuming that the first question refers to that which occurred in 70AD, which may not be the case. Rather, He describes what will lead up to “the end,” the things leading up to “the end” being described in Matthew 24:5-14. The sign that marks the beginning of “the end” is described in verse 24:15, which is the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. The unprecedented tribulation that immediately follows this sign is described in verses 24:16-28. What immediately follows this unprecedented tribulation is “the end,” which is described in verses 24:29-31, which includes the darkening of the sun and moon and the falling of the stars and the shaking of the heavens and coming of the Son of man and the gathering together of His elect.

The end of the world IS the coming of the Lord, who will send His angels to harvest the righteous for the good things that are in store for them and to harvest the wicked for the bad things that are in store for them, as stated in Matthew 13:24-50 and Matthew 24:30-31 and Matthew 24:43-51 and Matthew 25:1-13 and Matthew 25:14-30 and Matthew 24:31-41.

According to Revelation 19:11 – 20:15, this harvesting of the righteous and of the wicked (two resurrections) will not occur in a single 24-hour day but will span 1000 years.

Matthew’s Gospel concludes in verse 28:20 with Christ’s statement that He will always be with us here on earth (in Spirit) until “the end of the world,” which is when He will come back to earth physically, “the end of the world” being the 1000-year period described in Revelation 19:11 – 20:15, which is “the Day of the Lord” described by Peter in 2 Peter 3:3-15.


Ed:

The understanding of these events as I have described them above in no way contradicts any of the passages you have repeatedly quoted.


Jim:

It most certainly does. It violates the explicit language of the passages, as I’ve already explained more than once. My reference to your violation of the language is neither an insult to you nor a personal interpretation on my part but a reference to an objective fact.


Jim

 

Ed,

I haven't make a post on rapture for a long time. I feel like weary out on you for 3 years. I know you so well.

Posttribbers have no problem with Matthew chapter 24. Disciples asked of 2 questions(three questions 'and' -goes include with questions). They wanted to know what will be happen at the end of the world and His coming.

No way you can find a hint verse anywher ein context of Matthew chapter 24, Mark chapter 13, and Luke chapter 21 saying there will be two comings or Christ shall come again before tribulation.

Many pretribbers KNOW or are aware of three passages of (Matt 24, Mark 13, & Luke 21), all are very clearly one future coming at the end of the age shall be after the tribulation.

Yet, all pretribbers saying of these are for the "Jews" only, not apply to us. They have problem, Christ does not say, 'Jews', He told them, "ye", "you" in these passages. Always refer to followers well as believers.

I have no problem with 2 Thess. 2:1-4. It telling us, our gathering together/day of Christ will not come till we must see the sign of apostasy first, and the revealed of Antichrist. Clear, this passage telling us, these things must first to come pass before our gathering together/day of Christ.

You have to accept what God's Word. You cannot wrestle or resisting with God's Word, what these actual saying it.

If Christ comes today, I am happy and ready for His coming, I would not be upset about it. Same with posttribbers. I don't mind when pretribbers would saying to us, "See??? I told you so!" Both posttribs and pretribs are preparing and be ready for His coming.

Yet, many pretribbers are not preparing for the coming persecution, they are living comfortbale in America, they just looking for rapture. Posttribbers do looking for Christ's coming, but also, they always be preparing for any kinds of trials, persecutions, tribulaitons, etc. We must be alert for them with our spiritual awake all the times.

I am sure that you already know what Late Corrie ten Boom's comment. She warned, America will be the next country to face persecutions. She was a posttrib. She already experinced persecution under Nazi at the camp with her sister.

There is no promise find anywhere in the Bible saying that we shall never face persecution, tribulation. We have to face them, because Christ already suffering them, and He covercometh them - John 16:33; Acts 14:22; 1 Peter 2:21; and 1 Peter 4:12-16.

Late Corrie ten Boom already suffering great tribulation. Early CHristians already suffering great tribulations. Today, many Christians in other countries suh as in Middle East, are still persecuting. Aren't we better than them? We should always be prepare for them all the time, no matter what. The purpose of Church is facing tribulations, because Christ suffered on the cross, so, we should follow His example.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Ed: //It is the reading of Matthew 24:3 which dictates
that which some call an 'alteration' that I have
performed.//


Jim: //As you have just said, you have in fact performed an alteration. //

Note the apostrophes (') around 'alteration',
they mean that i'm using your word with your meaning.
I wouldn't use your word to describe my action,
but you would.

All i consider myself doing is relaying to
you the insights which the Holy Spirit gave to
me. Needless to say, the input came from multiple
places at multiple times with multiple interconnections.

When you said something like "I believe Matthew
24:29-31 all happen after the Tribulation period."
that should have been the end of the matter.

I do not accept your judgementalism that i've
done something sinful because I have an opinion
different from your own.

 

Ed: "Jesus answered the three questions of the disciples. The order in which he answered the questions is the order in which they were asked."


Matthew:
(ASV) Matthew 24:3 ... the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, (1) when shall these things be (the destruction of the temple)? And (2) what [shall be] the sign of thy coming and of the end of the world?


Jim: "I see only two questions, not three."

This is, of course, your opinion and you are free
to have it. I bold the and above.

I believe 'sign of thy coming' and
'sign of the end of the world' to be two variant
sets of events. You think they are one.
In fact, you have to think they are one, else you
would pre-trib, like me.

 

DeafPosttrib: "Yet, all pretribbers saying
of these are for the "Jews" only, not apply to us."

All Pretribbers do not agree on much of anything
except that the rapture/resurrection is before
the Tribulation period.

 

DeafPosttrib: "Late Corrie ten Boom already suffering great tribulation. Early CHristians already suffering great tribulations. Today, many Christians in other countries suh as in Middle East, are still persecuting. Aren't we better than them? We should always be prepare for them all the time, no matter what."

God is no respecter of persons. Your whole logic
is NOT the nature of God. God's plan will proceede
witout regard to persons. We are in no special
posion CERTAINLTY NOT FOR WHAT WE HAVE DONE.
Nevertheless, if i hear that trumpet sound -
i'm outta here. If you hear Jesus call - be
ready to go (if Christ's call is loud enough
to wake the dead, it will be enough for
the deaf to hear also.)

DeafPosttrib: " The purpose of Church is facing tribulations, because Christ suffered on the cross, so, we should follow His example."

The Church is compared to the body of Christ
and the bride of Christ. Suffering is often
the human condition, not the 'purpose of Church'.

 

DeafPosttrib: "I have no problem with 2 Thess. 2:1-4. It telling us, our gathering together/day of Christ will not come till we must see the sign of apostasy first, and the revealed of Antichrist."

You don't even know what 'apostasy' means.
How do you measure it? How do you know when it
is enough to reveal the Antichrist?

What is a 'revealed of Antichrist'?

BTW, the KJV says 'falling away' not 'rebellion'.
I'm ready to fall away from this ol' earth when
the Lord calls me.

I beleive the Antichrist will be revealed by
the Daniel 9:27 renewal of a peace-of-Jerusalem
treaty at the beginning of the 70th week of
Daniel. He will then begin to take over.
At mid-trib Antichrist will enter the temple
(the one he had rebuilt) and declare
himself as God. Then the Great Tribulation
of 3½-years will take place.
We will miss it all in heaven. AMen!

 

Hi Ed,


Ed:

When you said something like "I believe Matthew 24:29-31 all happen after the Tribulation period." That should have been the end of the matter. I do not accept your judgementalism that I've done something sinful because I have an opinion different from your own.


Jim:

I’m not judging you. Neither am I voicing a personal opinion. I’m stating the linguistic fact that the events described in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 are explicitly stated to occur after the tribulation. It is a linguistic fact that the language in these passages does not allow either the coming of the Son of man or the gathering together of His elect to precede the tribulation.


Ed:

All I consider myself doing is relaying to you the insights which the Holy Spirit gave to me.


Jim:

If the Holy Spirit had anything to do with the language in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, then the source of your idea isn’t the Holy Spirit, because the language in these two passages does not allow your idea.


Jim

 

Indeed - as is vs 31.

The "gathering" happens AFTER the tribulation.

There are not TWO gatherings listed in Matt 24.

There are not TWO great tribulations listed in Matt 24.

The sequence is ....

Trubulation.

Then Gathering.

So you have a post trib rapture by every measure.

And apparently even by your own statement above.

That is ONE of the signs given. The Sun darkened and moon turned red and starfall are also listed as signs.

Where is the rapture mentioned in Matt 24 BEFORE the tribulation ??

Or did Christ make a mistake?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
------------------------------------------------------
Yes, and if you read my writing above you
will find that Matthew 24:29-30 are all events
that happen immediately after the
Tribualtion of those days.
------------------------------------------------------

BobRyan: "Indeed - as is vs 31."

Again, you mix my eschatology and
your eschatology to make confusion.

Recommendation: Explain your own eschatology
and don't speak of mine. Thank you.
This is a good spiritual exercise as you
would speak positively instead of negatively
or confusedly.

 

It is simple.

Matt 24 speaks of tribulation.

Then signs in the heavens

Then the gathering and second coming.

I just don't see this as hard to get.

And when you post that vs 29-31 IS THE RAPTURE -- I simply point out that this puts it AFTER the tribulation mentioned in Matt 24.

Which would be exactly what I believe.

See?

In Christ,

Bob

 

But then you come back with TWO raptures - one BEFORE the tribulation of Matt 24 and one AFTER.

So I ask where you see the one BEFORE the tribulation of Matt 24... and so far we have nothing to support it in the chapter.

And THAT is where we seem to differ.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Here is a scripture of those resurrected in
the FIRST RESURRECTION:

Revelation 20:44 (HCSB):
Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them
who were given authority to judge.
I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded
because of their testimony about Jesus
and because of God's word,
who had not worshiped the beast or his image,
and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads
or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.

I note the 'also' here shows that two seperate
groups are being shown. This 'also' in English
is that lovely Greek connective 'kai' (usually
translated 'and' in English - most translations
will have the 'and' instead of the 'also;
as in this version.

1. "Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them
who were given authority to judge."

2. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded
because of their testimony about Jesus
and because of God's word,
who had not worshiped the beast or his image,
and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads
or their hands.

Note that group 1 folks are those who were
raptured/resurrected before the Tribulation.
These were the ones judged to be worthy of
being rewarded with service in the physical
Millinnial Kingdom.

Note that the group 2 folks are those who
were raptured/resurrected at the end of the
Tribulation.

The two groups are mutually exclusive.
Nobody is a member of both groups.

 

I agree that that saints of all of time are reference there. I just don't see two resurrections being called "The first resurrection".

There is only one there. And it covers ALL the saints "ALL the dead in Christ" as 1Thess 4 would have it.

And of course the "Two gatherings" or "Two second comings" or "Two resurrections" is totally missing from Matt 24.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob: I'm cursed with much insight.
I understand perfectly what you say you
believe. I also have the Spiritual Gift
of Discernment - I know what you really believe.

I'm serious in my advise (it wouldn't hurt you
and i'm not even asking that you abandon your
eschatology).

Recommendation: Explain your own eschatology
and don't speak of mine. Thank you.
This is a good spiritual exercise as you
would speak positively instead of negatively
or confusedly.

No, i do NOT need you to explain it to me.
You need to explain it to yourself and others.
My recommendation to you is NOT to help me,
it is to help you.

BobRyan: "So I ask where you see the one BEFORE the tribulation of Matt 24... and so far we have nothing to support it in the chapter."

I have explained this to the point of exhaustion.
Other also tire of my explaination.
I am NOT trying to convert you to anything.

YOu just don't know how much moral highground
i take understanding what you believe while you
don't understand what i'm saying.
I need to quit taking candy from babies ;(