1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The Meaning of 666, The Reason for the Riddle

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Alfred Persson, Jul 13, 2017.

Tags:
  1. Alfred Persson

    Alfred Persson New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2017
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    I will prove the following two propositions:

    1) 666 is a biblical allusion to a man’s name in the Old Testament: Adonikam.

    2) The Holy Spirit inspired this Riddle to strengthen the faith of the generation alive in the End Time that will see Adonikam rise to become the Antichrist Beast.

    We solve riddles by heeding its details, and spotting any double entendre hinting at a solution. For example, Samson’s riddle (Judges 14:14) contained the solution, honey eaten from the carcass of a lion (Judges 14:8-9, 18):

    So he said to them: “Out of the eater came something to eat, And out of the strong came something sweet.” Now for three days they could not explain the riddle. (Jdg. 14:14) NKJ

    The word “lion” in Hebrew (ʾarî) is almost identical to an Arabic word for “honey” (ʾary).-Wolf, H. (1992). Judges. In F. E. Gaebelein (Ed.), The Expositor’s Bible Commentary: Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1 & 2 Samuel (Vol. 3, p. 468). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House.


    Lets Solve the 666 Meaning:

    Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. (Rev. 13:18) KJV

    John said 666 is the number OF a man, not the number of a name. That’s double entendre, 666 springs from the man, 666 exists because of what the man is or does, it is not his name in code. We must pay attention to the detail with strictness, John insisted we COUNT to arrive at 666, that is one half of the equation. To solve the riddle we must deduce the missing half of the equation that equals 666 and then determine what man caused that calculation to exist, for it is “OF” him. Therefore Gematria, numerology, symbolic meaning, etc. are completely irrelevant.

    Lets review other details to find what else is implied in the wording:

    This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666. (Rev. 13:18) ESV

    Christians seek wisdom in scripture, therefore John’s call for it must involve the Bible. Adonikam is the only Bible name of a man 666 and a calculation point to that everyone (3588 ὁ ho) understanding the Bible can find. Once directly (Ezra 2:13) and once after a calculation (Neh. 7:18) subtracting Adonikam’s father who must have had the same name, so 667-1=666 still points to Adonikam. The only man directly causing 666 to exist and also the calculation resulting in 666 to exist, is the man Adonikam. As John thus says he is the Beast, 666 is the number OF the Beast also:

    The children of Adonikam, six hundred sixty and six. (Ezr. 2:13) KJV

    The children of Adonikam, six hundred threescore and seven. (Neh. 7:18) KJV

    Having these two verses point to the same name is like having “two witnesses” establishing the matter (Deut. 19:15).

    Adonikam alone is the elegant solution, it alone assembles John’s puzzle following all his requirements and still satisfies his expectation anyone with Bible wisdom will discover the one name he had in mind when he penned this riddle.

    Not so Kabbalistic Gematria. The pieces just do not fit, and regardless how it is tweaked, so many names are produced it will never satisfy John’s expectation only one name will result and the probability the reader will pick the name John had in mind is infinitesimal.

    For more click here The Meaning of 666, The Reason for the Riddle | End Time News.net
     
  2. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,817
    Likes Received:
    2,106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I'm Afraid your reasoning is no better than that of Geomatria. The solution is actually very simple and elegant.
    This is from my blog. For a fuller version, go to: Revelation (9). Chapter 13: The Two Beasts

    Rev. 13:16-17. ‘He causes both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.’

    Now we come to the mark of the beast. Every one of us either belongs to Christ or he belongs to Satan, but there are very few out-and-out Satanists. Anyone who belongs to Christ has His seal upon him. ‘….In whom [Christ] also, when you believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory’ (Eph. 1:13-14). So the seal is the Holy Spirit. When we looked at Chapter 7 {4}, we saw that the 144,000 represented God’s elect from the Old and New Covenants, those that carry the seal of God, the Holy Spirit, and no one can snatch them out of His hand (John 10:28-30).

    But Satan too has his people who carry his mark. There has been a lot of nonsense talked about the ‘mark of the beast,’ fuelled by certain books and films, suggesting that it will be some sort of silicon chip implant that people will have to have some day. This is to miss the point entirely. The mark of the beast is to do the beast’s will. Bob Dylan had a song which went:

    ‘You’re gonna serve somebody;
    Yes indeed, you’re gonna serve somebody.
    It may be the devil or it may be the Lord,
    But you’re gonna serve somebody.’


    And indeed you are. ‘Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?’ (Rom. 6:16). The mark on the head and hand signifies thought and action. Are your thoughts prompted by the Holy Spirit, and is that fact (if such it be) corroborated by your actions? Or do your thoughts and actions mark you out as an unconscious servant of Satan?

    People all down the ages have been tempted to compromise their faith in exchange for worldly advancement. In Rome, before you could join a craft guild (something like a trade union) you had to offer a pinch of incense to the patron god or goddess of that craft, just as to become a freemason today you have to make a vow to ‘Jabulon,’ and in Moslem countries, to get certain jobs you have to recite from the Qu’ran. And in this country, if you are a doctor or a nurse, you are expected to assist with abortions and if you’re a shop-worker you may have to work Sundays. This is what is meant by verse 17: ‘….That no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.’

    So how do we know the beast? How can we be sure that we are following Christ and not Satan? When we see the great success and the numbers in other churches, how can we know if it is we or they who are the True Church? When we see people promoted in front of us because they are not so picky about what they do or say, are we right or are they? How can we tell? It calls for wisdom.

    v.18. ‘Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: his number is 666.’

    We calculate the number of the beast. What is that? Why, the verse tells us! It is the number of a man. The number is 666. It is the number of a man- born on the sixth day, always and continually falling short of the divine Seven. It is the number of failure, because Satan must fall before Christ. So let us look at our churches; do they follow God’s word or man’s? Let us look at our ethics; do they come from the Bible or from human wisdom? Let us look at our conduct; are we led by the Holy Spirit or by our own desires? May God grant us wisdom in these days to distinguish the wheat from the chaff, and may He grant us grace that we may be found in Christ on that great day when He comes to crush Satan under His feet (2 Peter 3:10-13).
     
  3. Alfred Persson

    Alfred Persson New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2017
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    A reply of more than 800 words is not elegant. Nor does John hint he is discussing the character of the Beast. Its about his name, which renders your "symbolic" interpretation irrelevant.
     
  4. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There is a difference with the Nehemiah passage

    The children of Adonikam, six hundred threescore and seven. (Neh. 7:18) KJV

    so is it 666 or 667?

    Also going to the provided link suppositions abound - the most dubious is equating Adonikam with "the Assyrian"

    Probably not IMO.

    HankD
     
  5. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,817
    Likes Received:
    2,106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You don't seem to get it; John gives us the answer: 'It is the name of [a] Man' (there is no indefinite article in Greek). That's all it is! Simple and elegant! There's nothing symbolic about it and need to wait about for this chap Adonikam to reappear (if that's what you think he's going to do). The doctrines of Man are all about us right now within the Church as well as without.
     
  6. Alfred Persson

    Alfred Persson New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2017
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    You missed where I addressed that, John said we must COUNT 5585 ψηφίζω psephizo "count with pebbles"

    Subtract Adonikam's father Adonikam, 667-1=666

    Then you have a 666 and a "count" that is "OF" a man, that is both exist because of who Adonikam is, a man with 666 children. Because Adonikam is the Beast, 666 of also a number OF the Beast.

    John alludes to the OT more than 50%, books are written on the subject. Using 666 to allude to Adonikam is consistent with many of John's allusions to the OT. I cited one in the article, but you have to read the expanded version on my site:

    The Meaning of 666, The Reason for the Riddle | End Time News.net

    Rev. 13:1 "I stood on the sand of the sea" alludes to Daniel 7:2 to indicate Daniel is the key to correctly interpreting the symbols of the Revived Roman Empire Emperor Adonikam will rule, its a Grecian version, body of a leopard. Notice all the beasts Daniel saw are are part of the one beast John saw, so its one Empire not a succession of kingdoms. To make that clear John reverses the order the beasts appear in the Beast he saw.
     
  7. Alfred Persson

    Alfred Persson New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2017
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    666 can't be the name of a man.

    Adonikam is long dead, the mouth of the Beast, the little horn in Daniel, his name will be Adonikam also:

    Ezr. 2:13, called אֲדֹנִיקָם (“lord of enemies”), [Adonikam], comp. 8:13; Neh. 7:18.

    Gesenius, W., & Tregelles, S. P. (2003). Gesenius’ Hebrew and Chaldee lexicon to the Old Testament Scriptures (p. 14). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.
     
  8. Alfred Persson

    Alfred Persson New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2017
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Yes, there is and John depends on that difference when crafting his riddle. That point was lost in my OP, I've since clarified it. As for equating, I didn't do that. I unified, both are the one Antichrist. But that's a tangent, here is the relevant portion of my clarified argument:

    We solve riddles by heeding its details, spotting double entendre hinting at a solution. For example, Samson’s riddle (Judges 14:14) was solvable by the double entendre on “lion” and “honey” (Judges 14:8-9, 18):

    So he said to them: “Out of the eater came something to eat, And out of the strong came something sweet.” Now for three days they could not explain the riddle. (Jdg. 14:14) NKJ

    The word “lion” in Hebrew (ʾarî) is almost identical to an Arabic word for “honey” (ʾary).-Wolf, H. (1992). Judges. In F. E. Gaebelein (Ed.), The Expositor’s Bible Commentary: Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1 & 2 Samuel (Vol. 3, p. 468). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House.

    Lets Solve what 666 meant to John:

    Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. (Rev. 13:18) KJV

    The Genitive (“OF”) is the double entendre. 1) 666 is the number OF a man; 2) 666 is the number OF a name (Rev. 13:17); 3) 666 is the number OF the Beast.

    The solution:

    1a) 666 is OF the man because he has 666 children (Ezr. 2:13).
    2a) 666 is OF the name because it generates the equation that results in 666. In Nehemiah 7:18 Adonikam is said to have 667 children, therefore its deducible the list began with Adonikam’s father who must also be named Adonikam. So the “count” or “calculation” which is “OF” this name is 667-1=666, pointing to the same man Adonikam his son (Neh. 7:18).
    3a) 666 is OF the Beast because John said so (Rev. 13:18).

    The children of Adonikam, six hundred sixty and six. (Ezr. 2:13) KJV

    The children of Adonikam, six hundred threescore and seven. (Neh. 7:18) KJV

    Having these two verses point to the same name is like having “two witnesses” establishing the matter (Deut. 19:15).

    Continued here
    The Meaning of 666, The Reason for the Riddle | End Time News.net
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,490
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Actually the Arabic word for "honey" is عسل, pronounced "easal."
     
  10. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    11,851
    Likes Received:
    1,084
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I admit to have spent some time reading the links on this thread. I publicly repent of my folly.
     
  11. Alfred Persson

    Alfred Persson New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2017
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    That's above my skill set, I rely on the various helps our LORD blessed the church with:

    Based on the fact that the word for lion is homonymous with an Arabic word for “honey” (ʾary; cf. HALOT, 87), some see here an intentional word play. Accordingly the riddle could be solved by discovering a pair of homonyms, which mean “sweet,” and “strong,” respectively. For discussion see S. Segert, “Paranomasia in the Samson Narrative in Judges XIII–XVI,” VT 34 (1984): 455–56.

    Block, D. I. (1999). Judges, Ruth (Vol. 6). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.
     
  12. Alfred Persson

    Alfred Persson New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2017
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Why? I think an alternative to Gematria is necessary. If Holy Spirit filled John was a Cabbalist, that is not good.
     
  13. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,490
    Faith:
    Baptist
    LOL! I read his similar thread at Christian Forum's. It was one of the funniest threads I have ever read. :D:D:D
     
  14. Alfred Persson

    Alfred Persson New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2017
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    I've posted it on a number of sites. But please explain, what was funny, me, my argument, or those against it?

    In fact, it a position I've argued for years.
     
  15. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    11,851
    Likes Received:
    1,084
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I don't buy into Cabbala, and I don't buy into most of the end times propaganda that's being foisted upon naive Christians. My belief is that the people to whom John was writing understood his message and to go far beyond that is to twist the scriptures into something they were not designed to be.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Alfred Persson

    Alfred Persson New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2017
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    That's a sound conservative position. Can't argue against it. But I will add, remain open to changes in facts.

    Right now ancient alien theory is being impressed upon the populace. A lie told often enough, becomes truth to the population. Its a fact of history, psychology. So people are being convinced extraterrestrials exist and their faith in traditional concepts of God is being subverted, big time. Its increasing exponentially. Just 20 years ago anyone talking about UFOs were immediately laughed at. Not today.

    That can't happen without reason. If you believe scripture, and I know you do, then you know Satan is the "god of this world" in that he influences it. The Ancient Alien Theory is from the pit of hell, and will be used to cause the great falling away Paul spoke about in 2 Thess. 2:3-4. Of course extraterrestrials don't exist, but fallen angels do and if God's removing the restraint of evil means He will allow fallen angels appear physically among men, pretending to be UFO aliens, then you will be confronted with a new reality that totally upsets the "sound conservative position."

    If not, if what I warn about don't happen, no one is harmed. But if current events, which I warn others about, indicates we are perilously close to the time of the Antichrist, you should be open to that. Its not absurd. Improbable, perhaps, but not tin foil hat stuff. Not if you believe the Bible.
     
  17. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    11,851
    Likes Received:
    1,084
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What, exactly, are your warning us of?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Alfred Persson

    Alfred Persson New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2017
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
  19. Alfred Persson

    Alfred Persson New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2017
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
  20. AwesomeMachine

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2007
    Messages:
    176
    Likes Received:
    13
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    I might add that both 666 and 616 have been used in the Bible as the number of the beast. So, whoever the beast is must fit both of those numbers. Otherwise, the analysis is fallacious.

    When we take the letters of Nero’s Greek name and spell them in Hebrew (nrwn qsr), we get the following numeric values: n=50, r=200, w=6, n=50, q=100, s=60, r=200 = 666


    Latin form Nero Caesar into Hebrew (nrw qsr) is equivalent to: n=50, r=200, w=6,, q=100, s=60, r=200 = 616

    Both values are used in the Book of Revelation, depending on which version is used. So, if there is another beast that can be identified by both 616 and 666, Nero might not be the one. But I'd say using both numbers and common sense narrows the field quite a bit.

    But let's just say Adonikam is the beast. What possible significance could this have had to early Christians? There was no Bible at that time. The Book of Revelation was written so that Jewish Christian leaders would understand it, but Romans would not. Indeed, if Revelation was written plainly, anyone caught with the manuscript could have been executed under Roman law.

    Any educated Jew viewing nrwn qsr would immediately think of six-hundred and sixty and six. There were no integers at that time. So the number 666 in integer form didn't exist. Numerals would come some 500 years later.

    If one sets aside the hysteria, Revelation is easier to understand. In every generation since the Bible was first collected and canonized, there have been those who predicted the coming of the antiChrist. Guess what? They were all wrong! Those who learn from the error of others receive truth.

    Those who commit the same errors are enslaved to the same deceit. So, I encourage the OP to explore alternative meanings to Revelation. But also to use common sense.
     
Loading...