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Am I living out the Gospel Message

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Hermeneut7, Aug 11, 2017.

  1. Hermeneut7

    Hermeneut7 Member
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    Up front, I have a very negative view of revivalism. I also believe the older Presbyterians, Baptists and Methodists were correct that the office of "evangelist" was an extraordinary office that no longer exists, being only for the apostolic age. It seems that Pastors are to be preaching the gospel, doing the work of an evangelist. But, as a Christian layman, don't I have generally, the same responsibility to live as the wives were directed by Peter?

    "Wives, in the same way, accept the authority of your husbands, so that, even if some of them do not obey the word, they may be won over without a word by their wives’ conduct" (1Pet 3:1, NRSV)

    Do I exhibit and live the Fruit of the Spirit? Have I the Christian graces? Do I have a life that exhibits the joy, contentment and decency that would appeal to others, causing them to ask questions that open an opportunity to give the gospel message. Are we at risk that reliance and emphasis on revivals and evangelists, gives us this:

    "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cross sea and land to make a single convert, and you make the new convert twice as much a child of hell as yourselves." (Matt 23:15, NRSV)

    I read six online Christian/religious news magazines, and shake my head... but, am I living as I should be? My biggest battle may be with my quick, too often unbridled tongue.
     
  2. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    What's the text for saying the gift of evangelism is no more?
    How do you reconcile Jesus command to go into the world and make disciples?
    How do you reconcile Romans 10 "how can they hear if no one tells them"?
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  3. Hermeneut7

    Hermeneut7 Member
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    From the Protestant Reformed Churches in America website:
    "Unlike the offices of apostle, prophet and evangelist (which we considered in the last News) that of pastor and teacher (the other church office listed in Ephesians 4:11) is not an extraordinary office (though it is a special office). First, the extraordinary offices (apostle, prophet and evangelist) involved all or some of the following: an extraordinary call, direct revelation and miracle working. None of these extraordinary gifts are part of the office of pastor/teacher. Second, the extraordinary offices are temporary, ending with the apostolic age, whereas the office of pastor/teacher (like the offices of elder and deacon) is permanent, lasting until Christ’s bodily turn (cf. I Tim. 3; 6:14). Third, whereas pastors/teachers are called by a particular church, the extraordinary offices involved authority over the churches in general (and usually included itinerancy)."
    The Office of Pastor/Teacher; Christ's Compassion on the  Multitude

    John Wesley:
    "And, among other his free gifts, he gave some apostles - His chief ministers and special witnesses, as having seen him after his resurrection, and received their commission immediately from him. And same prophets, and some evangelists - A prophet testifies of things to come; an evangelist of things past: and that chiefly by preaching the gospel before or after any of the apostles. All these were extraordinary officers. The ordinary were. Some pastors - Watching over their several flocks. And some teachers - Whether of the same or a lower order, to assist them, as occasion might require."
    Ephesians 4 Commentary - English Annotations on the Holy Bible

    Matthew Poole:
    "Evangelists; these were likewise extraordinary officers, for the most part chosen by the apostles, as their companions and assistants in preaching the word, and planting churches in the several places where they travelled. Such were Timothy, Titus, Apollos, Silas, &c. "
    Ephesians 4 Commentary - English Annotations on the Holy Bible

    Matthew Henry:
    "The officers which Christ gave to his church were of two sorts - extraordinary ones advanced to a higher office in the church: such were apostles, prophets, and evangelists. The apostles were chief. These Christ immediately called, furnished them with extraordinary gifts and the power of working miracles, and with infallibility in delivering his truth; and, they having been the witnesses of his miracles and doctrine, he sent them forth to spread the gospel and to plant and govern churches. The prophets seem to have been such as expounded the writings of the Old Testament, and foretold things to come. The evangelists were ordained persons (2 Timothy 1:6), whom the apostles took for their companions in travel (Galatians 2:1), and sent them out to settle and establish such churches as the apostles themselves had planted (Acts 19:22), and, not being fixed to any particular place, they were to continue till recalled, 2 Timothy 4:9."
    Ephesians 4 Commentary - Matthew Henry's Complete Commentary on the Bible

    John Gill:
    "and some evangelists; by whom are designed, not so much the writers of the Gospels, as Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, some of which were also apostles; as preachers of the Gospel, and who yet were distinct from the ordinary ministers of it; they were below the apostles, and yet above pastors and teachers; they were the companions of the apostles, and assistants to them, and subserved them in their work; such were Philip, Luke, Titus, Timothy, and others; these were not fixed and stated ministers in anyone place, as the following officers be, but were sent here and there as the apostles thought fit:"
    Ephesians 4 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition on the Whole Bible

    I do not know if men like Hudson and Whitefield called themselves an "evangelist" or not, but if they did, it seems they were out of the mainstream of their day.
     
  4. Hermeneut7

    Hermeneut7 Member
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    Oops... John Wesley link: Ephesians 4 Commentary - Wesley's Explanatory Notes
     
  5. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    I believe that first and foremost the gifts of the Spirit are preceded by the reproval or conviction of sin via the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

    1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    Our only active part is acknowledgement of sin then Jesus through the ministry of the Spirit takes over from there.

    We can in no way defeat sin as we can no way remove it in the first place.
    If we try in the flesh, it only gets worse.

    It is very sublime, we see our need, acknowledge our sin, then He moves in and heals the soul/spirit of its disease.

    Relax, turn it over to Him and in due season you will get the desires of the inner man.

    John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

    HankD
     
  6. Hermeneut7

    Hermeneut7 Member
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    Yes, I agree totally even though it may be fully accomplished only when Jesus comes back for us at death, or at 'the last day'.

    "May the God of peace himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do this." (1Thess 5:23-24, NRSV)

    At times I review my life and I see the growth, the improvement, the successes, etc, but then I also seem to be even more conscious of how much I fail and fall short. Maybe it is just more psychological than spiritual with me. Then I view the 'Christian' world today with radio, Internet, TV evangelists, churches on every corner, but the state of the world seems more like the time prior to the Protestant Reformation, including the corrupt church leaders. Which, by the way, we celebrate the 500th anniversary of Luther's 95 theses this coming October, 2017. Maybe the kingdom of God grows 2 steps forward, 1 step back all through history as the body of Christ marches forward.
     
  7. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Wonderful promise from the God of peace.
    I believe you are better off than you think H7 keeping watch of your soul.
    Rest in Him.

    HankD
     
  8. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Who do you mean by "Hudson"? As for Whitefield and the Wesleys, whatever their particular teaching on the evangelist, I don't know how one can call them anything but "evangelist" if one gives a strictly Biblical view of the office. In fact, church history routinely refers to these men as "revivalists" and "evangelists." Bruce Shelley calls Whitefield "The great revivalist" (Church History in Plain Language, p. 361). Elgin S. Moyer writes of Charles Wesley: "Joined John in a great revival campaign that soon flowed over the borders of England into Scotland, Ireland, and America" (Who Was Who in Church History, rev. ed., p. 432). As for Whitefield being "out of the mainstream," he was the mainstream!! And he is called "the English evangelist" in The Baptist Heritage by H. Leon McBeth, the standard Baptist historian nowadays (p. 203).

    As for the early Baptists not believing in the evangelist, you quote John Gill, noted first of all for his hyper-Calvinism (would not even look at a visitor in his church in case they were not elect). Have you heard of Andrew Fuller? Shubal Stearns?

    If we take our definition of evangelist from Scripture, we only have Philip, who did three things: gave an example of personal soul-winning (the Ethiopian), gave an example of mass evangelism (Samaria), and gave an example of influencing for evangelism (his daughters). Then we have the Eph. 4:11 statement in which the evangelist is seen as someone to build up the local church. So, you have John R. Rice writing, "Evangelists are intended to edify and build up the body of Christ, to prepare the saints for service. This is to the end that souls will be saved as Christ's spiritual body, the church, is taught and edified and developed to increase itself by soul winning" (The Evangelist, p. 9). Is not that an excellent task?
     
    #8 John of Japan, Aug 16, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
  9. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    Evangelism is not a gift but a office in the church. There is no gift of evangelism.
     
  10. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Ephesians 4:11-12
    [11]Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers.
    [12]Their responsibility is to equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ.

    Seems like a small difference where we both make the same claim.
     
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