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Featured EFS

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by McCree79, Sep 2, 2017.

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  1. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    You either do not understand EFS or Arianism. One believed Christ was less of a being and created by the Father. The other holds them as equally and Fully God.

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    #21 McCree79, Sep 2, 2017
  2. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    To me it seems an unnecessary complication, an addendum to the formulation that doesn't need revision.
     
    #22 rsr, Sep 2, 2017
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  3. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps.....

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    * we went for centuries without it being an issue until we made it an issue. I believe the real issue lies among those in the complimentarian and egalitarian camps. It was never an issue when Calvin, Aquinus or Sproul spoke of the subordination of Christ. But as soon as some used it as a defense of complimentarism, it became an issue.
     
    #23 McCree79, Sep 2, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2017
  4. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    In my view volitional obedience is not subordination.

    When I make spaghetti sauce I obey the recipe but I am not subordinate to the recipe.

    I have stopped for the most part reading the works of the dead.
    I guess Sproul is still alive.
    I don't know who most of the names you have mentioned or they have fled my memory.

    Apart from Calvin's Institutes of Religion. A plight upon my brain.

    Anyway I did make a batch of spaghetti sauce yesterday and I am glad I obeyed the recipe and didn't let it burn on the bottom of the pan (which I am wont to do occasionally).
    .
    HankD
     
    #24 HankD, Sep 2, 2017
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  5. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    Lol, I'm sure not above some wild analogies, but I don't know about that one, Hank.

    Either way, I'm glad your spaghetti turned out good. :)
     
    #25 Rob_BW, Sep 2, 2017
  6. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    As far as I am concerned subordination of the Son to the Father for even 1 micro-second is the first step to Arianism's - Subordination of the Son to the Father. Beware.

    Jesus Christ was NEVER in subordination to the Father. He is the Second Person of the Trinity from eternity, as He entered the Time Stream as well.

    John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

    Yes I know of this passage:
    John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

    Greater than I (in Rank) Again the obedience comes out of a covenantal agreement to obey the commands of His Father yet He was not
    in subjection to Him in the sense of hupotasso.

    James 4:7 Submit (hupotagete-hupotasso) yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

    I will cede to the submission of His human nature to the Father while here on earth but still IMO (can't prove it) His submission was something other than hupotasso. He is/was/will always be one withe father in perfect accord - what need therefore of submission?

    HankD
     
    #26 HankD, Sep 2, 2017
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  7. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Thanks I got the recipe from my Italian grandmother (fraternal) - I am 75, the recipe goes back to 1895.

    Also,I can still smell the bread cooking in the oven!

    HankD
     
    #27 HankD, Sep 2, 2017
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  8. Sapper Woody

    Sapper Woody Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't going to comment, as I'm still studying the issue. But I will say that willful subordination does not diminish a position or a person.

    For instance, for my daughters' birthdays we let them choose the meal. Even if it's not what I would rather have, I make my will subordinate to theirs.

    However, I am still the father. I am still in complete control of the house. Yet I have subordinated my will.

    So, if Jesus subordinated himself to God the Father while here on Earth, it does not mean that he was not still equal to God the Father.

    Later, Christ subordinated his will to the Jews and Romans that killed him. He could have came down from the cross. So it's a fact that he subordinated his will to theirs. Yet he was still fully God, and still fully in control.

    Jesus being subordinate to God the Father seems to be the same thing to me.

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    #28 Sapper Woody, Sep 2, 2017
  9. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Makes sense as His actions of His humanity.

    However He had aligned His will with that of the father (my Father and I are one) and that mutual will was for Him to go to the cross and be the savior of the world.

    HankD
     
    #29 HankD, Sep 2, 2017
  10. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Honestly, I've read very little of Sproul; I've probably read more today than in the rest of my life.

    It seems to me that Calvin's view is not the same as Grudem or Sproul, et al. In the passage you mentioned, Calvin says that the obedience (or subordination) was during the incarnation with no mention of "eternal subordination."

     
    #30 rsr, Sep 2, 2017
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree with an eternal subordinate function, however not at incarnation only. John tells us that in the beginning there was the Logos. His choice of terms, I believe, implies a function in relation to the Father. In Genesis God is described as speaking the world into being. Yet John also informs us that this was done through the Logos. In Him and through Him all things exist. Another evidence is divine immutability. And going forward, we see this in Christ’s role of Mediator and of High Priest. We see this in Paul’s teaching of reconciliation and in Revelation with the “new song”. God, in his nature and being, does not change. This doctrine stands true through the Incarnation (the Logos became flesh, the Son set aside His glory, but this does not constitute a change in the divine nature).

    The only way, I believe, a Christian can deny subordinate function is to confuse it with equality or nature. But Scripture, throughout affirms this type of subordination. This is explicit in the description of Christ sitting at the right hand of the Father.
     
    #31 JonC, Sep 3, 2017
  12. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Allow me to walk this issue (on my part) back a little bit.

    Subjection does not equal subordination.

    In the example of Jesus being the 7 star general willingly reducing Himself in rank to a private coming to earth as a flesh and blood human being on a mission to be the Savior of the world. His Father (7 star general) remaining in heaven (apart from His omnipresence).

    In an earthly comparison:
    A general outranks a private but he is no better a man than the private.
    The private is no lesser a man than the general.

    Even at that Jesus subjection to the Father seems to me quite different than ours (hupotasso).

    To me subordination strikes at the essence of the deity of Christ. Subjection as a human being does not.

    HankD
    .
     
    #32 HankD, Sep 3, 2017
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  13. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Its the word "subordinate" that bothers me.

    Others have explained their take on it and removed the nuance of the attack upon His eternal deity.

    Still, I don't like the word. It smacks of Arianism to me.

    HankD
     
    #33 HankD, Sep 3, 2017
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  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    How do you view Paul's comments concerning the wife being subordinate to the husband?

    I think we are speaking the same thing in different terms. I see this as subordinate in roles (depending on the context). It is a submissiveness - submitting to the will of the other.

    Also, do you view the Holy Spirit as "sent"?
     
    #34 JonC, Sep 3, 2017
  15. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Jon, if it's eternal, isn't it then ontological instead of functional?
     
    #35 rsr, Sep 3, 2017
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  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I'm not sure. Personally, I wouldn't say "ontological" because it is not a difference in being but in function or role.
     
    #36 JonC, Sep 3, 2017
  17. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Again, I don't like the word subordinate.

    In my view Christ's submissiveness to the Father was more a human resolution of an agreement of wills between Himself and the Father.

    This IMO is what happened in the Garden of Gethsemane.
    The eternal God the Son come in human flesh concluding that He had to go to the cross in agreement with the will of the Father.

    Subordination of a wife to her husband is a different matter.

    The Holy Spirit "sent" Also an agreement, Father and Son, Holy Spirit, now is the time to go..

    HankD
     
    #37 HankD, Sep 3, 2017
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  18. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    I too would distinguish between voluntary submission during the Incarnation and subordination generally. I would also distinguish between the Divine and Human Natures within the Incarnate Christ: the voluntary submission pertains to the latter only and thus existed exclusively within the Incarnation; it was therefore limited in time without affecting divine immutability.
     
    #38 Matt Black, Sep 3, 2017
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  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I disagree that Christ's submissiveness was more a human resolution of an agreement of wills. The reason I disagree is because of the attitude that was found in Christ that, although existing in the form of God, he did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped but emptied Himself. This is what some can use to argue against my position, however consider the immutability of God. This attitude existed in Christ, in the Son. And I believe it an eternal quality.

    I also disagree that the subordination of a wife is such a different matter. I think it the same, only the human marital relationship pointing to that relationship to Christ and the church, and the Son to the Father.

    I also don't care for the term "subordinate", but that doesn't mean I think it inaccurate with the qualification of "function". I believe Christ is the eternally begotten of the Father (both in pointing to salvation and in general as evidenced by the first chapter of John).
     
    #39 JonC, Sep 3, 2017
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  20. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    You can have the voluntary submission of the human Christ without violating His Divine equality nor His Divine immutability
     
    #40 Matt Black, Sep 3, 2017
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