Does God send His children to hell?

Greetings

I gave my challenge in another thread. I'll repeat it here.

I am so sure that neither BobRyan nor 1jim know what God's New Contractual clauses are that I will make a public apology if either one of them can give the answer.

How can one do theology without understanding the basics? BTW, this great comment originated with steaver.

I'm waiting for you two.
Nah nah nah boo boo.
Bet ya can't find it!

Lloyd

Limitations:
1. Offer valid only through noon Saturday Sep 17.
2. Only one attempt per person allowed.
3. Must be able to provide all clauses.

 

Greetings

Matt 18: 21-35 (Luke 19:11-27)

The parable shows the initial forgiveness that every believer has “in Christ.” The master of the parable forgave the servant a multi-billion debt. This illustrates the believer’s initial and positional forgiveness. The Bible is clear that at the moment we believe in Christ, we are totally forgiven in terms of our position as eternal children of God.
__In Christ we have…the forgiveness of sins (Col 1:14).
__God has forgiven you ALL trespasses (Col 2:13-14).

But positional forgiveness does not mean that we always are in fellowship with God. The disobedient servant received temporal punishment for his failure to forgive another servant. Forgiven people need forgiveness in order to remain in fellowship with God.

The Arminain heresy ignores context – again! Jesus presented this parable as a response to Peter’s question regarding the number of times that he should forgive a brother. Jesus links His temporal present forgiveness of the believer’s confessional requests with the forgiveness of others.

This does not make the eternal forgiveness of sins and destiny conditional upon fickle human capacity to forgive others. God’s word teaches that nothing can separate the believer from the love of God (Rom 8:39). Although nothing can sever God’s child from this so great love, sin inhibits fellowship. Sin “vitiates” service. Thus, the confession of sin is crucial to the close walk of fellowship with Jesus.

God’s forgiveness of sins begun in past salvation is not dependent upon the present confession of sins. But God’s present salvation forgiveness of sins is dependent upon the believer’s forgiveness of others. Jesus is serious about loving our enemies.

Please note that past salvation determines eternal destiny while present salvation is the measure of a believer’s victory over the power of sin.

Lloyd

 

Hey steaver

You might have a point, but I'm not hep on a prospective apology (hep?? I guess I just dated myself).


Let me correct this. I'm not cool on a prospective apology!

Lloyd

 

Just found this little gaming section from Lloyd!

What a hoot!

Get it?

A myopic nugget-Gospel DOWNSIZED for OSAS is NOT supportable in the NT text!!

And now for another good description of the transaction process -

Notice the list of "I WILL" and the list of "THEY WILL" ?? Yet?

Notice that this is OT Scripture STILL AUTHORTATIVE in the NT text!

Notice we have the CONTINUED OT text in the NT called "scripture" repeatedly by the NT SAINTS.

ONE Gospel in BOTH Texts!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hold the phone Steaver!!

Lloyd believes what you just said. Lloyd has been arguing for the faithless, unbelieving heart of the saints -- as SAVED!

Jim as you note ALSO BELIEVES that a believer can choose to STOP BELIEVING.

Steaver this is an important point - don't miss it.

The 3 and 5 pt Calvinist DOES NOT believe that a Christian "CAN STOP BELIEVING". THEY claim that once you are saved YOU WILL persevere.

NEITHER Jim or Lloyd have argued for that .

In your quote above you "appear" to imply that YOU would argue the point that once saved - a true saint WILL persevere firm until the end.

That is in fact a THIRD position in the debate between Jim and Lloyd. (And between me and Lloyd when Lloyd stops ranting long enough to actually debate the point)

Lloyd's position is very much like a 4 point Calvinist in the aspect of denying the Bible doctrine on Perseverance and Endurance. That is why I keep posting the devastating texts that utterly debunk Lloyd's position there - and that is why he keeps running from them saying he will not read them today.

See?

In Christ,

Bob

 

A person goes his entire life hating God and God's people. Sending him to Heaven would be a hell for him.

 

Steaver -

You said

I am sorry but in objective logic and reason (which means - outside the realm of Calvinism) --You can not have it "both ways".

The retro-deleted assurance and salvation - principle of the 3 and 5 point Calvinist - states cleary that IF you FAIL to persevere TEN YEARs from TODAY - that in fact ALL of your salvatin and ASSURANCE you claim to have today - is null and void.

For you to insist that future failure to persevere HAD NO effect at all on your claims for assurance or salvation TODAY - is to ignore your own argument.

You can not embraace Lloyd's argument AND YOURS at the same time -- (at least not - and still make sense).

You need to pick one or the other OR pick the answer that is actually right.

The one that admits to aLL the facts of Matt 18 FORGIVENESS REVOKED, To Justification PAST, and to Perseverance ESSENTIAL.

In other words - hold to the COMPLETE BIBLE!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Paul shows that the “SAVING’ them is the whole point of this Gospel preaching. He preaches the Gospel to others in order to SAVE them. He mentions nothing about those saved getting big houses in heaven nor does he mention what great honor and room-size reward he is seeking in heaven. His entire focus is not on “What perk do I get” but on the great value/reward of SALVATION itself as the goal and objective of the Gospel received when preached “to others”.

Now comes that “unpleasant section” for many where Paul points out the seriousness of this Gospel pursuit for the goal of saving people -- so that I may by all means save some. as he says.

It is as a “fellow partaker of the GOSPEL” that Paul wants to participate in preaching. He then shows that his own example in persuing that goal of being “A fellow partaker of the Gospel” is the standard/model/role-model for the saints. He has left the realm of “I am a leader and Apostle and so I have special rights” to the perspective of WE ALL want to be “Fellow partakers” of the Gospel for as he has just pointed out when the Gospel is received the people are saved. (; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.)

So now in this “fellow partaker of the Gospel” model for ALL that Paul is offering (in the form of his own life example) he shows how it works. He shows the perspective of the saint, the attitude, the focus the Olympic ALL for the Gospel focus that is NEEDED. IN fact he argues that it is critical EVEN for an Apostle for even in this most exaulted case HE is at risk “LEST after preaching the Gospel to other I MYSELF should be disqualified” from that very Gospel!

How instructive!

Yet how fervently ignored by those who find this to be an “unpleasant” section of scripture!

Take each "detail" and show the meaning IN the 1Cor 9 context itself. Let the argument speak for itself IN the text you are exegeting.

Or do you read vs 23-27 and respond with

And so when Paul says

Do you respond with

"Are you saved by your efforts of paying close attention, persevering and taking pains with those disciplines?"

Will your response to each of these displeasing texts be simply to challenge them and show how your view of "other texts" don't allow these unpleasant texts to exist??


When Paul says

Do you respond with I would hope that you are humble enough to put no faith in yourself........and at least a little in God!

In an effort to misdirect away from the texts above where Paul is being crystal clear – perhaps when you see yourself needing to “gloss over” the details of these text and you respond to them as “inconvenient” to your views on other texts (like Eph 2 for example) it is a sign that those other texts are being taken to extremes in your interpretation.

When we let THE TEXT speak does it cause you to immediately jump to some other "more comfortable" text?

IF so - it is a sign that you have taken what your comfortable texts do not actually say explicitly and have added "inferences" that were never in those texts to start with.

In the case of these "unpleasant" texts - it is the mere quote of them and the insistence on seeing their details rather than glossing over them that is causes so many to have heart burn.

 

The answer to the question of the OP:
No.

 

So why not keep the context in focus, instead of going off in some other tangent.
How many times shall I forgive mey brother?
7 times?
No, but I say to you seventy times seven!
In other words as oft as your brother offends you, you shall forgive him, and then Jesus went on to give a parable to illustrate this point.

The question I have for you is: Why do you try and read into a parable more than what was ever intended? The parable, an illustration, was meant to answer the truth presented by Jesus, on how often we should forgive our brother, and no more. We do not have to find a meaning for every single thing that Jesus says in his parable. We are not dealing with allegories here. Otherwise you are following the Cathoic Saint, Augustine, who popularized this method of Bible hermeneutics, instead of properly rightly dividing the Word of Truth. The truth is that Jesus was simply illustration one truth and one truth only. And that is how often and in what way (compassionately) we should forgive our brothers. To read anything else into this passage is frivilous and unneedful.
DHK

 

Greetings DHK and Steaver

Congrats. You both have properly responded to this difficult passage. Let me add a third attempt.

Matt 18: 21-35 (Luke 19:11-27)

The parable shows the initial forgiveness that every believer has “in Christ.” The master of the parable forgave the servant a multi-billion debt. This illustrates the believer’s initial and positional forgiveness. The Bible is clear that at the moment we believe in Christ, we are totally forgiven in terms of our position as eternal children of God.
__In Christ we have…the forgiveness of sins (Col 1:14).
__God has forgiven you ALL trespasses (Col 2:13-14).

But positional forgiveness does not mean that we always are in fellowship with God. The disobedient servant received temporal punishment for his failure to forgive another servant. Forgiven people need forgiveness in order to remain in fellowship with God.

The Arminian heresy ignores context – again! Jesus presented this parable as a response to Peter’s question regarding the number of times that he should forgive a brother. Jesus links His temporal present forgiveness of the believer’s confessional requests with the forgiveness of others.

This does not make the eternal forgiveness of sins and destiny conditional upon fickle human capacity to forgive others. God’s word teaches that nothing can separate the believer from the love of God (Rom 8:39). Although nothing can sever God’s child from this so great love, sin inhibits fellowship. Sin “vitiates” service. Thus, the confession of sin is crucial to the close walk of fellowship with Jesus.

God’s forgiveness of sins begun in past salvation is not dependent upon the present confession of sins. But God’s present salvation forgiveness of sins is dependent upon the believer’s forgiveness of others. Jesus is serious about loving our enemies.

Please note that past salvation determines eternal destiny while present salvation is the measure of a believer’s victory over the power of sin.

Lloyd

 

They believe as you do - that once saved you WILL persevere!

Here is where and I differ in one way - I agree with you that the one who perseveres from salvation to the end - is "saved the entire time". I just think some of the lost were also "saved at one time".


You and Lloyd differ because HE thinks you easily might NOT persevere but being a mass murderer and a pagan after you were a Christian should still leave you saved no matter what.

Actually the 4 point Calvinists would agree with Lloyd -- that perseverance is optional. Do it if you fell like it - kinda salvation "no matter what".

You don't "birth yourself" but BEFORE you are saved you must CHOOSE faith in Christ.

So how are you answering that question?

"BEHOLD I STAND at the door and knock if anyone HEARS AND OPENS the door I WILL come IN "

In Christ,

Bob

 

Could holy sinless perfect living Adam "UNCREATE himself"? No? But he still died, got sick, sinned and was "in need of Salvation"!!

We can not UNBIRTH ourselves but God "destroys BOTH body AND SOUL in hell" Matt 10.

So call it "unbirth if you like".

In Christ,

Bob