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Do You Agree with Calvin or Wright On the Nature of the Atonement?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Yeshua1, Nov 2, 2017.

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  1. Robert William

    Robert William Member
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    1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    Limited Atonement (Particular Redemption)

    Limited Atonement is a doctrine offered in answer to the question, "for whose sins did Christ atone?" The Bible teaches that Christ died for those whom God gave him to save (John 17:9)

    Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine... Christ died, indeed, for many people, but not all (Matthew 26:28).

    Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins

    Specifically, Christ died for the invisible Church -- the sum total of all those who would ever rightly bear the name "Christian" (Ephesians 5:25).
    This doctrine often finds many objections, mostly from those who think that Limited Atonement does damage to evangelism. We have already seen that Christ will not lose any that the father has given to him (John 6:37). Christ's death was not a death of potential atonement for all people. Believing that Jesus' death was a potential, symbolic atonement for anyone who might possibly, in the future, accept him trivializes Christ's act of atonement. Christ died to atone for specific sins of specific sinners. Christ died to make holy the church. He did not Atone for all men, because obviously all men are not saved. Evangelism is actually lifted up in this doctrine, for the evangelist may tell his congregation that Christ died for sinners, and that he will not lose any of those for whom he died!
     
    #161 Robert William, Nov 10, 2017
  2. Robert William

    Robert William Member
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    Yes he did, Van preaches that Jesus Atoned for the sins of ALL humans, that's universal salvation..
     
    #162 Robert William, Nov 10, 2017
  3. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I don't think so either. He seems to be saying propitiation is the means of salvation. I agree with that, but if all people, without exception, have had their sins atoned for, as atonement is the complete propitiation, the complete satisfaction for, the complete payment for sin, then he seems to be saying those who have had their sins completely paid for somehow still go to hell. Even though they are without sin and without the penalty for sin. ???
     
    #163 TCassidy, Nov 10, 2017
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  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    He did not in the post you quoted (he said Christ became the propitiation and Christ became the means).

    If you are going to make the accusation then you need to provide the evidence along with that accusation.
     
    #164 JonC, Nov 10, 2017
  5. Robert William

    Robert William Member
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    Yes OK, but we both know by his previous posts that his interpretation of "sins of the whole world" is that Jesus atoned for the sins of ALL humans, he is trying to sneak his way around it.
     
    #165 Robert William, Nov 10, 2017
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Not to speak for Van, but I don't think he means all men experienced their sins forgiven.
     
    #166 JonC, Nov 10, 2017
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I didn't see that post.

    Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (all of humanity)....in other words Jesus is the Savior of all men, especially those who believe (or, there is no other name given to men by which we must be saved).
     
    #167 JonC, Nov 10, 2017
  8. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Why do people go to hell?

    What does John state is the reason folks are already condemned?

    Not from lack of blood.
     
    #168 agedman, Nov 10, 2017
  9. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    That statement is the heart of the problem. Propitiation is the complete satisfaction for the sin debt. If the satisfaction is complete then all men are sin free and nobody sin free can go to hell if God is a Just God, as I believe Him to be. :)
     
    #169 TCassidy, Nov 10, 2017
  10. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Who has made such a claim? Certainly not me!
     
    #170 TCassidy, Nov 10, 2017
  11. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    My apologies.
     
    #171 agedman, Nov 10, 2017
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    But that statement (Christ is the propitiation) has Christ as its subject. It's no different than saying Christ is the only name given to man under which we must be saved. There is no other way but Christ.
     
    #172 JonC, Nov 10, 2017
  13. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    You seem to have missed the point. How can a sinless person go to hell?
     
    #173 TCassidy, Nov 10, 2017
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    A sinless person does not go to Hell.
     
    #174 JonC, Nov 10, 2017
  15. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    If that person has received the complete propitiation for his sins, he is sinless. And if propitiation is universal, so is salvation.
     
    #175 TCassidy, Nov 10, 2017
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I do not believe that person has received the complete propitiation for his sins. As I said, Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the world.
     
    #176 JonC, Nov 10, 2017
  17. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    This thread is closed.
     
    #177 Squire Robertsson, Nov 11, 2017
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