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Featured "Free Choice" - MB

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by thatbrian, Nov 30, 2017.

  1. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Van, I am terribly sorry you seem unable to follow the discussion and respond accordingly. The constant whining is a sad development. When I knew you 35 years ago I thought of you as a very intelligent man, along with the rest of the management team, Walt, Joe, Don, et. al. But it is beginning to look as if the years have not been kind to you. :(
     
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  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Argument against the man posts reveal nothing edifying.
    No matter how often the absurdity is repeated, non-choice is not choice.
    1 Cor. 2:14 does not say natural people cannot understand all the things of the Spirit,
    Matthew 23:13 teaches the fallen have some spiritual ability, they were entering the kingdom.
    Calvinism asserts God ordains (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass, including our choice to sin, yet God is not the author of sin. Pure nonsense wrapped in an enigma. Cognitive dissonance on display. :)
     
  3. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    This only because you have invaded the thread with your calvinistic foolishness. Like Jehovah's Witnesses you insist on a barrage of non sense to confuse the topic so you can attempt to protect the false doctrine of Calvinism.
    MB
     
  4. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    The venomous posts in this thread from people taking the anti-Calvinist side are breathtaking. Shocking talk for Christians. . . The ignore feature is a necessity here.
     
    #44 thatbrian, Dec 11, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2017
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  5. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    See there even you can understand the truth.
    An answer isn't what you want because I've given it to you. What you want is an agreement with you and that is not going to happen.
    You've never answered the questions I've asked you. I asked you to prove total depravity and you have not done that. All you have done is post scripture that when read in context which doesn't prove it.
    MB
     
  6. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Slaves in bondage have managed to escape their bonds, by choosing Christ. Just because they are in bondage does not mean they can't hear the gospel or make a decision for Christ.
    MB
     
  7. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    These are not just taking the anti Calvinistic view. They're trying to show Calvinist the truth of what Scripture actually says. The fact you and other Calvinist are not able to defend taking scripture out of context and using tactics to confuse and distract from what is so obvious about Calvinism is really denying that God wrote what He wrote. This denial is disrespect of God.
    MB
     
  8. Katarina Von Bora

    Katarina Von Bora Active Member

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    I sometimes, don't reflect the Christian witness that I should. But in this thread, I decided to take a few days off to regain my peace.

    The biggest problem in most Christian forums is that unbelievers are watching and we are sending the worst possible messages to them.
     
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  9. Katarina Von Bora

    Katarina Von Bora Active Member

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    This post proves that you don't know what reformed theology teaches.

    I'd love to see you post a scripture that says men have free will unto salvation. I've read through the Bible many times, and I just can't find it.
     
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  10. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Hi there!

    I'm late to the party :)

    You may have already defined it, but can you explain what you mean when you say "Free will unto salvation" and I will do my best to present a reasonable response. Thanks!
     
  11. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    I'll jump in, and try to offer an answer. After Adam, all men are born in bondage to sin. That is why Jesus said, in John 6:44 that, No man *can* come to me. . . Now, Christ did not say that no man *may* come to Him. He said that no man *can* come to Him. Men are not able, nor do they even desire to, come to Christ, unless and until they are set free/made new creatures first.

    Sinners sin. It is their nature to sin. They cannot please God. "Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." (Romans 8:8). Worse than that, natural man cannot even see or comprehend the things of God. "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."(1 Corinthians 2:14).
     
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  12. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Ok, first, Please explain how the context helps your argument you developed out of John 6:44. Please be specific. This is a Gospel Narrative in which Christ was speaking to specific people at a specific place at a specific time. Thanks in advance.

    Secondly,

    Right, sinners sin. Saved people sin. What's your point?

    Thirdly,

    Explain how 1 Corinthians 2:14, in its context, explains that sinners need to be regenerated in order to place their faith in Christ...again, in its context. If it's truly there, you should be able to support your claim without going to other areas of Scripture.

    Thanks in advance
     
  13. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Both texts are plain, so I don't mean this to be sarcastic because sometimes I am sarcastic, but if you can't see the point of those texts, I am at a loss for trying to explain them to you, especially 1 Corinthians 2:14. That can be made no plainer.

    What do you mean by "a specific place and time" when referring to John 6:44? Do you mean that what He said does not apply any longer?

    Here's some context. Verses 36 and 37 also prove the same point, as well as the entire section, finishing with 44, which is His wrapping up this pericope.

    John 6:35–44

    [35] Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. [36] But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. [37] All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. [38] For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. [39] And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. [40] For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

    [41] So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” [42] They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” [43] Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. [44] No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. (ESV)​
     
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  14. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    How convenient, you don't include the next verse.

    John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to me.
     
  15. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Are you saying that text negates the previous one? Put them together, Jon, and then read them.

    "Everyone who hears". Who are those who hear? "And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables," (John 4:11)
     
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  16. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    The exercise is for YOU to put the together the verses. He was speaking to people who rejected Christ's teaching BECAUSE they did not truly "listen to the Father." That was their claim "Our Father this, our Father That." And Jesus was saying, "If you were truly born-again, learning of the Father, He would have drawn you to Me."

    This passage is a Gospel Narrative and Not an Epistle. You must handle it carefully. Christ is making a statement that is speaking about people who would have already been regenerated AT THAT TIME dealing with Christ's ministry.
     
  17. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    How can you believe something that you admit that you can't explain?
    MB
     
  18. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Do you believe in the Trinity? Can you explain the Trinity?
     
  19. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    He's talking about, in my estimation, texts of Scripture. @thatbrian failed to exegete the texts but is certain as to what they mean.
     
  20. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Exactly. How can he believe in something (The Trinity), which he cannot explain?
     
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