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Is Original Sin Doctrine Found in Bible?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Yeshua1, Feb 17, 2018.

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  1. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    I would be satisfied just to discuss the difference between death passing to all men and that which death is replaced by, Sin.

    Its kind of like people thinking we are saved by faith through grace alone.


    God bless.
     
  2. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Paul makes the argument that sin and death are inextricably linked in Romans 5

    [12] Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—[13] for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. [14] Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. (Romans 5:12–14 ESV)
    His over-arching point here is that even though there was no Law between Adam and Moses--and, therefore, no sins being counted--death still occurred. His argument is, then, that Adam's sin is counted as our sin (or passed on to us) and the evidence is that all between Adam and Moses (except one) die. How can death happen when sin isn't counted and the wages of sin is death? Because Adam's descendants die because of Adam's sin.

    That's Paul's argument here. Others have coined the term "Original sin," but whatever you call it, Paul generates the concept here. What is more, if we reject the argument about the "Federal Headship" of Adam and his sin (guilt and propensity) being passed on to us, then we must also abandon the concept of the Federal Headship of Christ and His righteousness being counted as ours, too. So, this doctrine of Paul's is abandoned with great consequences and at great peril.

    The Archangel

    PS. I didnt' read the entire thread.
     
  3. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Hello brother,

    I am following you, but Paul is repetitious with this principle, "All have sin; all do sin." With or without the Law, we sin--not because we have "sinned in Adam," but because we all actually sin.
     
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  4. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Actually, that is not the case. Paul's point is that people die and yet they haven't technically sinned (because of the absence of Law). The words "Sin isn't counted" thwart your point.

    The Archangel
     
  5. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Except that Paul says, "Death through sin."
     
  6. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Quite true, if we die because we sin no babies could die.
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Paul did though link Original Sin to His Justification Theology, for by Adam , ALL have received and inherited that same Fall of now being in sin, and born as sinners...
    Adam very nature was sinless, but corrupted to then being sinful, and ALL save for Jesus have now received that very sin nature passed unto us as due to the fall!
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Our very human natures were changed to being now sin natures due to the Fall, and ONLY Jesus bypassed having a sin Nature, due to the Virgin Birth!
     
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus very nature was though God and sinless humanity, NOT the sin natured state all of us have now been born into!
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Not, but that God has chosen to show mercy/grace upon them!
    All babies are born in a state of being sinners, deserving hell, But God in his mercies can save them to Heaven!
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    When one eliminates original Sin, and the connection of the headship of Adam and Jesus, as representing sinners and saints before God, than we end up with a Jesus who was basically same as any of Us, who overcame sinning by exercising His willpower and faith, and basically whatever Jesus was shown able to do, we could do likewise!
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Except that Augustine derived his theory from the letters of Paul, especially in the areas of theology where paul expounded upon the relationship between the First/Second Adam, and between us being with spiritually dead due to now be reckoned by God born into Adam, as contrasted to those now alive in Christ!
    What is original sin?
    Where would you find yourself on understanding it?
     
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    We have the same nature that Adam had when he transgressed God's command. Read your Bible, Y1, not the internet.
    No, Paul did not link the Doctrine of Original Sin to anything. He explained the universal ramifications of sin, the consequences brought into the world of man by Adam. But Paul never once taught that "sin nature" is passed down. Instead, human nature is inherited and we all sin and have fallen short of the glory of God. That's the part you need to pay attention to, brother - human nature beside divine nature (man fall short of the glory of God).
    You are wrong here as well. Augustine did not derive his theory from Scripture. He applied philosophy to Scripture. Read his works.
     
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  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I think that you are so scarred of him being a catholic that you see any view that he might have held as being all tainted and wrong!
    And you really see Jesus having exact same human nature as we all have, so there was something within Him that would be able to have entertained and lusted and thus commited the sin act, as we all have that, being born with wicked and evil hearts!
     
  15. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    ... So a aborted babe can be saved without being a human?

    What is he then when saved , in your opinion
     
  16. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Nope.

    Paul uses the Aorist in his argument, pointing to a single event (ie. Adam's sin), not multiple events (ie. everyone sinning in and of themselves). Second, "through" is translating δια + the genitive, and is the proper translation. But, the idea of "through" is instrumental as in death happens because of sin.

    Here is Leon Morris' take on it:

    The aorist points to one act, the act of Adam; we would expect the present or the imperfect if the apostle were thinking of the continuing sins of all people. Paul says that all sinned in Adam, not in imitating him (cf. Bruce). And it ignores the context with its strong insistence on the sin of one man (not all of us) as the cause of the trouble.

    Leon Morris, The Epistle to the Romans, The Pillar New Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI; Leicester, England: W.B. Eerdmans; Inter-Varsity Press, 1988), 231–232.
    What is more, Paul's argument in v. 18-19 leaves no doubt:

    [18] Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. [19] For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. (Romans 5:18–19 ESV)
    Whether one calls it "Original Sin" or something else, the historic doctrine of Original Sin is exactly what Paul is detailing here.

    The Archangel
     
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  17. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    The point is as the acts of one affecting many, Are all saved becaus of Christ or did He make a way whereby we cam participate? Adam did not make us participate but started a system of sin

    1Co 15:22
    For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    or Adam, physical death , Jesus spiritually alive
     
  18. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    I hold to Limited Atonement. I would argue, as scripture does, that Christ saves His elect.

    That's a quaint thought, but it isn't at all what Paul is arguing in Romans 5.

    Paul, of course, won't contradict himself.

    The Archangel
     
  19. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    I do not hold Limited Atoinement neither Predestination

    Neither would Paul contradict scripture Eze.
    Eze 18:20
    The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    So where is the explantion needed. ?
     
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Ahhh....the "logical fallacy monster" attacks :Cautious

    There is nothing in Christ that would have entertained sin. I'm not sure why you think anyone is saying otherwise, or how you came to this conclusion from my statements. Scripture tells us that Christ had the same nature as we have. The reason you reject Paul is not because you believe he was Catholic but because you have developed/adopted a philosophy that demands human nature being changed at some point in time (something foreign to Scripture, as evidenced by your inability rely upon Scripture).

    Scripture teaches us that Christ became flesh and shared in OUR humanity - not some humanity foreign to human nature (to OUR human nature). This is why, according to the Bible, that Jesus is qualified to be OUR High Priest.

    Our nature in and of itself is not sin. James teaches (plainly, I thought until now) that sin is birthed when we give in to temptation, that temptation focusing on the desires of our human nature. Scripture teaches that Jesus also had a human nature with human desires. He desired (in the flesh) not to suffer. He became hungry, thirsty. But He (not according to your philosophy but according to the Bible) remained obedient to God and did not do his will (the will of the flesh) but the will of God.
     
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