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Is Original Sin Doctrine Found in Bible?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Yeshua1, Feb 17, 2018.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think the difficulty may be that the "Doctrine of Original Sin" is being used to mean different things on this thread. Although Paul does explain that this one act of Adam is indicative of the race he represents, that in Adam we have all sinned - that through this one act mankind were made sinners, this is not the common definition of Original Sin (at least not the definition the OP has engaged with a true human nature and a fallen one).
     
  2. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    That is physical death for babies, according to David
     
  3. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't say in Adam all have sinned, It says In Adam all die
    1Co 15:22
    For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


    Rom 5:14
    Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I was referring to Romans 5 where the many "were made sinners". That said, I agree with you. The point is that we are slaves to sin and death.
     
  5. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    You have a lot of explaining to do if you only reference Ezekiel 18:20. What do you do with these passages:

    [5] You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, (Exodus 20:5 ESV, emphasis mine)

    [6] The LORD passed before him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, [7] keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation.” (Exodus 34:6–7 ESV, emphasis mine)
    Ezekiel is not contradicting God Himself. Ezekiel 18:20 makes a wonderful soundbite for your thoughts to find corroboration. However, the context is against your interpretation of this passage as a universal statement. Also, a true biblical theology would view all of scripture, taking into account the verses above, while seeing how scripture fits together as a whole, rather than hanging an entire theology on one soundbite taken from its context.

    The Archangel
     
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  6. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Romans, 5 19?

    For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    YLT has:

    for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.

    We were not "poieio " made, to be sinners, we were kathistēmi, ordain, named, appointed sinners

    All are not righteous,
     
  7. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    That is the warnings blessings of Israel to keep the nation pure and in existance until Jesus came ad Saviour.
    Physical curses on the conduct not to pollute the blood lines of Israel. See the limits. David's grandmother was Ruth from Moab
    It also applies to behavior. Israel had to exist.

    God was actually saying the sons are guilty also, (I believe it involved more than worship )
    Eze 18:2
    What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
    Eze 18:3
    As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasionany more to use this proverb in Israel.
     
  8. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    It does say we all sinned
    Romans 5:12
    NIV Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned,

    All the verbs are aorist - completed action in past time.

    We come into this world dead in trespasses and sin.

    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
     
  9. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    People kick against the goads that they are born dead in sin and the trespass of Adam because it leaves them without a shred of righteousness NOW OR EVER. Jesus Christ is our one and only hope.
     
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  10. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Yes, we did sin, on our own, It is past. we are judged and condemned.
    Rejecting original sin does not mean we are without sin, It just question where we got it.
     
  11. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    In God's reckoning we were there with Adam when he sinned.

    That's where we got it and we enter this world condemned.

    John 3:18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
     
  12. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Are you suggesting the Exodus passages are saying this? The Exodus passages are about a pure bloodline??? Really??!!

    Well, Ezekiel 18 is discussing a proverb. But, what Ezekiel says about the proverb is important. But, the proverb must be known and understood before any real understanding of 18:5 and 20 is gained. Ezekiel's examples (and there are three) demonstrate that the sins of the father do not condemn the son anymore than the sins of the son condemn the father. In other words, there is plenty of guilt to go around. Specifically, in this context, the statement "the soul who sins shall die" is a call to repentance, instead of being comfortably trapped in a fatalistic quagmire where the sons cannot escape their father's sins, gladly repeating them.

    So, it does not mean what you think it means.

    The Archangel
     
  13. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    It does say everone is guilty but of their own sins, Yes the chapter dors have a call to repentance but is not certainly a parable.
    It is a warning from God v1, like the book

    All the Law, ceremonial and moral is to sustain Israel as a nation. It is not for salvation nor us as modern non Hebrews.
    I applies only to Hebrews between Moses and Jesus.
     
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Exactly. It's a matter of the will, not one's nature. Adam represents one headship (the flesh) and Christ another (the spirit). We are born into Adam (as our representative) and reborn into Christ (again, as our representative). Adam reflects the kind of people who are born into him, and Christ the kind who are born into Him.

    The only two natures Scripture offers is "flesh" and "spirit". The "Fall" ensured a physical death which spread to all men - not a spiritual one as we are not born "spiritually alive". Christ saves men out of the bondage of physical death and into spiritual life (which is why Paul bases Christianity on the Resurrection).
     
  15. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    well said
     
  16. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Again Romans 5:12 includes sin as an element that was "passed" to all.

    Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

    Had the last phrase been left off then those who deny the sin nature would be correct.
    However the verb to sin is aorist (past tense) ALL sinned (past tense) all died (past tense) at the time of the transgression and we are all born condemned..

    ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον

    I know I said I was done with this subject but IMO to deny the sin nature is error.
     
  17. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    i believe physical death is because iof Adam, spiritual death is because of sin,
    We have the sin nature but it is not inherited. It is all in the past same as we are condemned already
     
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Romans 5:12
    Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-

    The verse does not say that sin was passed on, but rather death spread to all men because all sinned.

    The idea is not "born a sinner" but that Adam is like all men. Through him death spread because we, like he, sin.
     
  19. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Disagree.
     
  20. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Past? how long ago? What is the point of inception?
     
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