Question on Galatians 5:4 and OSAS

Bob,

bmerr here. I don't see how one could be saved apart from obeying the commandments of Christ/God, since Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to those who obey Him (Heb 5:8-9).

I may have stated my case poorly. I say this because we usually seem to agree on most points, and you seem to disagree with this one. Let me try again briefly.

There are some things that have always been sin (ie. lying, murder, fornication, idolatry), both before, and after the Mosaic Law was given to the Israelites, both before and after the New Testament came into effect.

The way I understand it, the Galatians were being pressured by Judaizing teachers that wanted to bring them under the Mosaic Law, in matters such as circumcision, dietary restrictions, and other things specific to Israel. They were being taught that unless they did these things, they could not be saved.

Paul told the Galatians that if they returned to the Mosaic system, they would have fallen from grace, because they would have departed from Christ.

Is that any clearer? I'll make another attempt if I have to. I'm pretty tired right now, though.

In Christ,

bmerr </font>[/QUOTE]That is a classic argument that Catholics use to defend the need to keep the commandments in order to be saved. They say that the "law" in Gal. 5:4 means circumcision, dietary laws, etc.

But when using the term "law" in Scriptures is that what's really implied? Or is it the commandments of God? Let's look at how the Master used the term:

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Mt. 7:12

"Or have ye not read in the law (OT Scriptures), how that on the sabbath days the
priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?" Mt. 12:5

"On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Mt. 22:40

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?" Luke 10:25-26

"The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail." Luke 16:16-17

So who here still thinks that the general Jewish usage of the term "the law" in the time of Christ still refers to dietary laws or circumcision and not the OT Scriptures? It is true that circumcision was a part of the Jewish law since God commanded it. But that is not the whole law.

So then "the law" is the whole OT Scriptures, and "your law" (see John 8:17; 10:34; 15:25) is the grevious law that the jews added to Scripture. Jesus didn't say what He did in Mt. 11:28-30 for nothing if one had to keep the Law in order to either get saved or stay saved as some suppose.

All of chapter 3 and 4 in Galatians address the error of trying establish our own righteousness by keeping the Law. Paul also addresses this error in Romans 10:1-10. I can't see how any saved person can make this mistake since salvation depends on out trust in Christ alone for salvation through His finished work on the cross.

And to say that after being saved a Christian must maintain his/her righteousness through the keeping of the commandments (which Christ plainly says is impossible in Mt. 19:26 BTW) is just as bad as one that wants to get saved that way. And what would prevent one from boasting of their fine work upon getting into Heaven if they got saved early in live and kept the commandments as a requirement to get in? Read again Eph. 2:8 and 1 Cor. 1:31 please.

Paul didn't conclude his epistle this way for nothing:

"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto
the world." Gal. 6:14

 

I might agree, someone who never had any fruit or any good works might not be saved. But who has no good works? I know unbelieving Muslims that do good works all the time. How much good works do you suggest I should look for to make sure I am really believing on Christ for my salvation? </font>[/QUOTE]You will find yourself with a strong desire to read God's Word where no desire existed before.

You will have a new found love for the brethern where none existed before. 1 John 3:14

You will immediately stop taking the Lord's name in vain.

And the fruits of the Spirit as written in Gal. 5:22-24 will also be made manifest in your spirit.

I used to work with a fellow, and on his first day I was training him. We had some time before our next service call so he suggested that we go to a porn shop to do some reading. I told him right there that I was a born again Christian and that I wouldn't be caught dead there. After a short period of silence he said that he also was born again a an altar call in the med seventies. I can assure you that after working with him for about 3 years that he never got saved.

D.L. Moodly used to tell a story about a drunk that he ran into on a train in England. The drunk said "Hey! Aren't you D.L. Moody? And Moody replied "Yes I am." and the drunk said "I got saved by you a few years back at one of your meetings." and Moody replied "I believe that you did get saved by me, but you sure didn't get saved by Jesus Christ!"

That my friend is what James was addressing in his epistle. Do you know what the percentage is of people that claim to have been born again? I can assure you as well that they all didn't get saved by Jesus Christ.

 

If that is your testimony, Praise God. I have a different testimony. But nowhere in scripture does it say that a believer will automatically have good works. New believers have to be discipled. They have to be taught to want to know God's word, they have to be taught to not curse or take the Lord's name in vain. They have to be taught that drinking is a sin. They may instantly feel an affection for others and they may not. But feeling affection and loving your brethren are two different things. But you are correct, this is what James is talking about. But he is talking to people that are already born again.

DL Moody, great man of God that he was, was not immune from error. It is most common to make the mistake that if someone doesn't have works, they don't really believe, but dead faith is still faith. We must be saved, and then we must be saved again at the judgment seat of Christ. When James said can faith save a man, that is the salvation he was talking about. That salvation will be by faith made perfect by works.

2 Timothy 1:9
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

hath saved, past tense, is done. Now you are also called with a holy calling. You are not called to get saved, you are saved. But every saved believer has a calling. You are called to be a saint. Being saved does not equal being a saint.

1 Corinthians 1:2
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

The Corinthians were sanctified, and they were called to be saints. He doesn't say they are saints. Paul had some things to say to these folks concerning their behaviour. Paul said they were carnal, babes in Christ and had to be fed with milk, not meat. Milk is for babies, not for the dead.

1 Corinthians 3:1-5
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

They are carnal, and walk as men! But be sure, they are believers, according to verse 5. Paul doesn't tell them 'I saved you, but I guess Jesus didn't.' No, he warns them of the judgment for believers.

1 Corinthians 3:11-17
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

How can an unbeliever build anything upon the foundation of Christ?

Colossians 1:2-6
2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Paul calls the Colossians saints and faithful brethren. Their faith is manifested by their works, they are bringing forth fruit. Paul is writing to exhort them to continue in the faith, but all the same warning them of the judgment as well.

Col 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
Col 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
Col 3:25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

 

James.
Paul had this to say about the Corinthian saints in his address to them:

"to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints,"

So they were already indeed saints.

And I do agree with you that new believers need to be taught, and I still had some sin that had to be dealed with, but the Holy Spirit immediately dealed with my using His name in vain without any other teacher or even the Word of God. I mean, the night of my new birth.

I do not believe in the perseverance of the saints as Calvinists do, but Scripturer does say this:

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." Rom. 8:14

 

Indeed and "can that faith still save him"???

When scripture says "by grace are you saved through faith" is it "Dead faith" that scripture speaks of?...

Apparently dead faith is "useless". Apparently dead faith "can not save" when it comes to the context of James 2 and faith that genuinely responds to the Gospel vs pointless faith.

Apparently dead faith that "believes only" is the faith of the devil and his angels according to James.

This is something to pay attention to -

In Christ,

Bob

 

You are quite right Bmerr. I am simply pointing out that Christ's John 14 pre-cross statement is NOT an offer of "Salvation by works". When He says "If you Love Me KEEP My commandments" He is speaking of the only life that a follower of Christ can follow. It is the same point He makes in Matt 7 where He INSISTS that the good fruit is the product of the good tree and bad fruit is NOT! Then He says "NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord! Will enter the kingdom but he who DOES the will of My Father" Matt 7.

It is not an offer of "savltion by works" it is a statement that "Gospel salvation WORKS!". Christ says it DOES Work and those who deny that this "New Creation" is in fact "created unto good works" such that "It is no longer I who live but Christ that lives in me" -- have got to speculate for sin and rebellion as the "Walk of faith".

But in 1John 2 Christ says that such speculation is itself a lie.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Indeed and "can that faith still save him"???
</font>[/QUOTE]No, not at the judgment seat of Christ.

 

1 Corinthians 5:1-2
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

strange saints...

 

"Sons"; "huios". Position, not familial relationship. You are born into the family of God by "believe"; you become a son by obedience.

 

I agree that this was one of the problems in the church of Galatia. I also agree that we see this in Acts 15 where the point is made explicitly that "unless the gentiles are circumcised they can not be saved".

The problem with that is that the OT never required the gentiles to be circumcised and circumcision is not a "means" of salvation.

Having said that - obedience to God's Word IS related to salvation according to Romans 6 and 8. So much so that Paul says in Romans 3:31 "Do we then make void the law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God"

My earlier post was just to point out that even though the Bible does tie the new walk of faith in with obedience to the Word of God (His Commandments etc) it is not actually preaching salvation by works.

Actually I think we agree on this part.

This is where we differ. Recall that the NT authors always refer to the OT (including the Word of God given through Moses) as "Scripture".

They never view it as a "trick" to see if someone can be tricked into obeying scripture as if that would be a "bad thing".

In fact Paul even goes so far in Romans 14 to point to the optional things of scripture and say that even if people are keeping those without a strick command to do it -- it is ok.

What gets me is that some people setup scripture like it is a "trap" a "trick" to see if someone will be so foolish as to actually obey it - and thereby deny Christ. (As if Christ "is not the WORD that became flesh")

God has never setup his own Word as though it were some kind of "dark force seducing loyal saints and tricking them into obedience". Paul even goes so far as to take a Nazarite vow in the temple to prove that he is not in any way taking away from what he called "scripture".

Having said that - I believe that Heb 10 makes it clear that the animal sacrifices and offerings and the ceremonies based on them - ended at the Cross. And yet you see Paul taking his offering to the temple in Acts - not because it is required but because it is allowed and it is a way for him to reach out to the Jews.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Paul argues that someone is trying to "deceive" the saints into thinking that they can live in sin and still go to heaven --

Paul argues that those who live in rebellion EVEN IF they are amont the saints in church -- they will not inherit the kingdom that Christ proclaimed - that is "Thy Kingdom come" spoken of in the Lord's prayer -- that is the promised kingdom of 1Cor 15. Heaven, eternal life, the New Earth etc.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Lets work with this a bit. Lets say the father has a son who no longer wishes to live life according to the Fathers rules, under the fathers roof. The Father has other children who can possibly be affected by the rebellious sons actions, so the Father Disowns the son.
Now lets say a boy living on the street is taken in by this man and over a period of time this boy Develops a love for the father. The Father sees that the boy acts according to his standards and believes wholeheartedly.

1. Who is more of a son to the father the former or the latter?

2. What were the fathers standard for sonship (acceptance)?

Read Matthew 12:46

"46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."
48 He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

Jesus is VERY clear here that doing the will of the Father is what determines if you are part of the family. If you are owned by the Father, then the Father can disown regardless of blood if the person cease to do His will.


The conditions of sonship is does not lack obeying the commands of the Father.

 

Why do you seem to be overlooking this phrase and trying to apply the passage to salvation?

Does this change the fact that he is a child of his father?

 

Lucifer REMAINED one of the children of God - "sons of God" -- created directly by God even AFTER he fell. Nevertheless - he became Satan.

Adam REMAINED one of the children of God - the sons of God -- created directly by God even AFTER he fell. Nevertheless he was lost and was in need of salvation - condemned to hell by the righteous law of God that defines sin!

The servant in Matt 18 was still a servant AFTER he was forgiven (as Paul claims to be a servant in all of his letters) and even after he refused to forgive others - but STILL his "forgiveness was revoked" and he paid for HIS OWN debt - as all sinners must in fiery hell.

God still "SO LOVES" them as He "So Loved the World" - but having rejected the Gospel of their salvation - they have chosen to pay their own debt of sin in hell. An debt that forfeits eternal life and suffers the pain and anguish due the sins they committed JUST AS SURELY as Christ paid the suffering and anguish owed for those very same sins!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Sorry. I assumed that you were concerned, which is why you asked. My point is that he isn't talking about losing your salvation at all. And those "in danger" are those who are striving to rely on their lifestyle rather than faith alone. This comes in the middle of an argument by Paul regarding the gospel in an attempt to keep the Galatians trusting in the work of Christ alone. So those who take this passage and try to argue nonOSAS are the ones in any sort of danger... they are the very ones to who mpaul is addressing this text - not those who support OSAS. that was my point. This ia actually an OSAS text.

So the question is,

Can nonOSAS really be reconciled with this text? It seems that you're still misunderstanding what Paul was saying there. He is essentially saying the following:

OK, now I think we're clicking. You're saying that Paul was concerned about those going back to a legalistic system. Well, that's true, he was. And it is possible. Though one who has truly trusted in Christ and been re-born cannot help but know in the recesses of his mind that he's wrong if he goes that way, IMO, because the Spirit never stops working on him.

Many take the expression "fallen from grace" to refer to some sort of falling from a position of salvation. Paul is saying that they have fallen from a position of relying on God's grace through faith. And those who do so are cut-off from fellowship with Christ. 1 John 1 says that you cannot claim to be walking in light if you're walking in darkness and living in sin.

Gotcha,

But theconcern is not whether someone turns from a closs walk with Christ or rejects Christ or is living in sin.

The question regards some believers who still believe in Christ, yet have become confused regarding how to grow in Christ - relying upon works aswell as faith. Such will stunt their growth in Christ. The NASB has vs. 4 as...

You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

The issue is those who are seeking to be justified by [works of] the law.

IMO Paul is syaing that "they left the sphere of grace in Christ and took their stand in the sphere of law" as their hope of salvation. Paul does not mince words and carries the logic to the end of the course. Paul is not talking about certain sins or severe sins, but what is concerned about is someone who is a essentially substituting "works of the law" for "the death of Christ in their behalf" as the agent of their salvation.

Just giving my opinion here, let me say that IMO this may be referring to someone who has gone back to relying on the law instead of Christ at all, yet that is not likely. He calls them brothers. IMO they are still believing in Christ as the Messiah, but mixing in works, thinking that they also have to follow the law as well. Such essentially severs the ability of Christ to enable them to walk with Him.

These believers are essentially, by relying on works of the law, thinking that they are relying upon Christ's death as well as the law. Yet by saying that they are severed from Christ Paul is stating things very graphically to make his point that it's eitehr Christ saves you, or you are relying upon the law to save you - you can't have it both ways.

Romans 11:6 says, "But if it is by grace, then it is no lonegr on the basis of works. Otherwise grace would not lonegr be grace."

IMO, that's Paul's point. Now, how about the "severed" from Christ thing? As in Philippians 3 Paul is using it to refer to circumcision. He's trying to make a point by using graphic and strong language. These believers were going back to saying that we must trust in Christ and also be circumcised. It's similar to someone who says today that we must trust in Christ AND be water baptized.

So Paul (IMO) did not mean that such Christians were literally cut-off from Christ. His language was meant to shake them up and make them realize that they can't have their cake and eat it too. Paul added his confidence that they would see it his way now as well.

FA

 

Charles,

bmerr here. Agreed. Salvation is by faith. As we both know, much discussion has been, and could be had concerning what defines "faith". I tried to make a similar point in the post you quoted from.

In brief, Paul's answer to PJ in 16:31 encompasses the events following, (hearing + believing, repentance, baptism), and these events are summed up in the phrase, "believing in God with all his house" (16:34).

So to believe so as to be saved is to follow the example set by PJ. I have no problem with the statement, "We are saved by faith". This is fully supported by Scripture. I only object when one goes beyond what is written to say, "We are saved by faith only", implying that all one must do is to mentally acknowledge the facts of the gospel.

Perhaps we're not as far apart as we thought.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

The repentance and baptism came after salvation. They're acts upon which obedience rests, not salvation. Salvation is by "believe"; the work was done by Jesus. Obedience is by works. Entrance into the Kingdom is by obedience. Rewards, loss, and chastisement are based upon works. Salvation is not dependent upon obedience.

Every single scripture that warns us about our lack of faith and works concerns an entrance into the Kingdom, not salvation.

 

Paul argues that those who live in rebellion EVEN IF they are amont the saints in church -- they will not inherit the kingdom that Christ proclaimed - that is "Thy Kingdom come" spoken of in the Lord's prayer -- that is the promised kingdom of 1Cor 15. Heaven, eternal life, the New Earth etc.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Of course many argue that the kingdom of God weill be His glorious reign here on Earth for a thousand years, and that those that are not serious about their walk will not reign with Him.

I would say that the Lord's prayer is a better argument for the earthly reign of Christ since it goes "Thy kingom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

Why would Jesus say that if He wasn't going to reign here on Earth just as He does today in Heaven?

 

Tazman.
If you will go and read John 6:40 you will see what the will of the Father is. Most religionists (like Catholics) assume that the will of the Father is for us to either establish or sustain our own righteousness through works of the Law.

Thank God that is not the case since it is quite impossible for man to perform this according to His standards. Mt. 5:48; 19:26; Romans 3:10,23.

1 Cor. 1:31