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Christ's Atonement

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 1689Dave, Apr 16, 2018.

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  1. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Back in the mid-70s I heard the doctrine called Limited Atonement for the first time. The teacher believed in Universal Atonement but quoted the Limited Atonement doctrine from the Thomas and Steele 5 Points of Calvinism book.

    While setting there I realized that two versions of Christianity stood before me. On the Limited Atonement side I realized a person’s faith became evidence Jesus died for them and God saved them. On the Universal Atonement side I realized faith is a condition people choose to meet to activate the atonement and salvation.

    When Jesus says “whoever believes has eternal life”, is belief a characteristic or condition of salvation?
     
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  2. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    It is a condition:

    John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

    It is a condition not in the sense of what earns salvation but a God required and designed response to the offer of salvation.
     
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  3. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    A usable distinction between the two.

    A debate of several centuries.

    Personally I am undecided and even see a third view of "middle voice" typified in the passage:

    Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

    Used by Paul as God's spokesman:

    Acts 24:25 And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.
     
    #3 HankD, Apr 16, 2018
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  4. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your response. This comes back to the questions that surfaced during my first exposure to the limited atonement doctrine. Is receiving Christ a characteristic of those whom God saves? Or a condition people must meet to activate their salvation?


    My present understanding is that whoever believes has salvation. And receiving Christ follows believing. It is the natural outworking or characteristic of believing.
     
  5. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Faith is a gift from God to us, not a gift from us to God. We have nothing worth giving to Him that would merit salvation.

    All of Him, none of me. Faith is a characteristic of salvation, the result of regeneration, not the cause of it. The cause of it is the Grace of God.
     
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  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. The gospel is the power unto salvation. Grace is the gift. Often those who claim grace alone do not really mean it because faith in their doctrine always travels with grace as a gift.
     
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  7. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your reply and interest in this discussion. One thing that comes to mind is the difference between believing based on experience vs choosing to believe in the absence of experience. Choosing to believe means you do not believe but must decide to, as in the Catholic sense of blind faith. Paul says the Spirit bears witness with our spirit. So in this sense, we believe in Christ the same way we believe the chair we sit in exists. Because we experience him.
     
  8. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I believe you have set up a false either or scenario.. Further your reply seems to rely totally on reason devoid of scripture. Let's take a look at what scripture says once again.

    Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

    So faith comes from hearing God's word. It is never listed as a gift (Eph 2:8-9 lists grace alone as a gift). This is faith in God, faith is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That is the context of Romans 10.

    Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

    The power "of God" (important words there) is the gospel. The power of God is not experience it is the gospel. Hence the prayer of Jesus in John 17:20-26, hence the Great Commission, hence the calling of the Apostles (those who are witness to the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ).

    The experience comes once we are saved and experience grace via our belief and repentance.
     
  9. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    Grace is the impetus by which the free gift is offered. Faith is the reaching out and receiving the gift. Both are necessary FOR salvation (Acts 16:30-31; 20:21).
     
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  10. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your reply. I agree with everything you say except I believe the new birth precedes the capacity to recognize and believe in the true Christ. As Jesus said when Peter recognized him as the Messiah. Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven.

    In the Christian rages a warfare between flesh and Spirit. But if we remove the Spirit what is left that would choose the true Christ?
     
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  11. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    He wasn't talking to Peter about the New Birth.

    The gospel Romans 1:16, 10:17
     
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  12. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your interest in this. Jesus told Peter that it takes special revelation for us to see Christ in truth. What was the difference between Peter and the Pharisees who saw the same Jesus nearly every day?
     
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  13. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Jesus never said that the pharisees did not receive the same revelation that Peter did. Further scripture answers your question:

    1 Peter 5:5-6: “God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble.” Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time.
     
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  14. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for sharing your views. How do you interpret this and similar passages?

    “But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.” (John 12:37–40) (KJV 1900)

    Thanks for considering this.
     
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  15. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Sure by other clear scripture:

    Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
    Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
    Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
    om 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
    Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
    Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
    Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
    Rom 1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
    Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
    Rom 1:27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
    Rom 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
    Rom 1:29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,
    Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
    Rom 1:31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
    Rom 1:32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

    Those who are blinded are those whom God gives over to the hard hearts they already have
     
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  16. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Now let me ask you, if men are born blind or unable to come to God why would God find it necessary to blind them?
     
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  17. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your reply. I don't know other than he would have blinded them from birth. We know Israel alone had the oracles of God in OT times and the rest of the world perished in their blindness.
     
  18. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Interesting answer.
     
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