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Matt 18 and Forgiveness Revoked

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Jan 7, 2006.

  1. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Every lost human is not every lost child of God. If this were so then all would be saved eventually. Seeking for the lost children of God kinda sounds calvinistic. Your not thinking about converting are ye? [​IMG]

    God Bless!
     
  2. Tazman

    Tazman New Member

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    Steaver,

    You are clearly averting the point. Bob is correct. This parable includes some one in service to the Master. That's it. No more no less. You don't have to guess who is in service to the Master, whome you know to be God in this parable. Your only way out is to disqualify the servant standing with the Master. This parable is beyond that point by addressing Servant to Master relationship. this was not a "would-be" servant as you suggest.


    There are parables for none believers (servants of satan) but this isn't one of them. Remember, it was Jesus' disciples (servants of the Master) that started this.


    It clearly does not fit your understanding of OSAS.

    It's sad we must play politics in church. [​IMG]

    I only have a little time, but take care. [​IMG]
     
  3. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Then please quickly answer my question...

    When the scripture says a servant (of God) does this mean the servant is saved?

    God Bless!
     
  4. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Brother, why do you have such difficulty giving a straight and clear answer? Brother Bob does not believe the man is saved just because he is called a servant, YOU obviously DO! I do NOT "suggest" this man is a "would-be" servant. I do NOT believe "servant of God" equals "saved of God". Go back to the top and read my post slowly. My end question to you was...

    "Why is the servant(saved from your point of view because he is called a servant of God) starting out in the parable getting saved again? Can people become born-again over and over? Please explain.

    Please! Say anything you want but answer my questions. Thank You. :D

    God Bless!
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    News Flash: Mankind did NOT EVOLVE! Mankind was MADE by God! ALL are His children ALL are lost!

    "God so LOVED THE WORLD that HE GAVE..."

    "God is not willing for ANY to perish"

    "God was IN Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself"

    Your problem with actually seeing God as caring for His lost children as in "really cares" and "really lost" and "really God's child" stems from the rejection of the basic Gospel statement on grace (unconditional grace in this case) where God so LOVES THE WORLD without the world FIRST doing something for God ANd without some subset of the world being 'arbitrarily selected'.

    Question for you -- IF you reject the basic Bible truth that all are God's and ALL are lost - (As God shows in the case of the unfaithful stewards of His vinyard for example) - and if you insist that the servant MUST be a born again saint - THEN what is the UNFORGIVEN status of the servant coming to the King with an awesome debt STILL OWED representing in your recast of the text of scripture?

    Let me guess - you don't have anything that works in the model you keep suggesting!

    Hmmm - why does that not surprise me.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    The word of God....

    Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.


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    Luk 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.


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    Jhn 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.


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    Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


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    Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.


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    Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God : but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


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    Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


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    1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


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    1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

    John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

    Looks like all of mankind are not the children of God. Yes, God has created all of mankind. I can't believe you would not understand such a simple fact outlined in the scriptures. It looks bad for you brother, it's like grasping at straws. You really need to step back and take a long study into born-again.

    God Bless brother.
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In Matt

    John 11:52
    and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.

    Acts 2:39
    "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

    Here we see the pagans of Acts 17 in Greece called "the children of God"

    Acts 17:
    22 So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, ""Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects.
    23 ""For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, "TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.


    Acts 17:29
    "Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.


    As for the Jews - "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1.

    Christ shows that the "Servants" of the King are not saved - some are in need of salvation (as we see explicitly in Matt 18) --


    Acts 21
    38"But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.'


    All the imaginings that "the unforgiven servant that owes a great deabt in Matt 18 is in fact a fully forgiven saint" -- is simply that - pure imagination it is not exegesis.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Now how did I know that was going to go unnanswered?
     
  9. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Sorry Bob, now you should know me by now, I do not ignore questions, I might miss some. I did want to reply but I did forget.

    I do not believe that the servant was already saved when the King began to rekon with him. This was what I presented to Taz because Taz declared that "servant" (of God of course) means "believer". If you go back and re-read what i wrote you will see what i mean. I was showing Taz that the parable would make no sense if "servant" means "believer" getting saved again.

    God Bless!
     
  10. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    And you are WAAAAAAYYYYY off understanding just who is a child of God. You are a first for me on that one. I never heard any other brother in Christ say that all of mankind were children of God. It just isn't supported in the scriptures. The ones you quote do not make your case any stronger, in fact they weaken it as well.

    BTW, do you have any support of this from any well reknown bible scholars? I would like to read them.

    God Bless!
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Steaver -

    You say the servant is not saved, not forgiven that comes to Christ in Matt 18 and owes a great debt.

    But then the king DOES forgive him and the King SAYS in the story "I FORGAVE you".

    Question 2: Do you accept that or ignore it?

    If you allow yourself to accept it - then how is it you complain about the "children of God" concept of Paul in Acts 17 as HE declares all mankind to be the children of God - while speaking to the Pagans in Greece?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I point out that all mankind are God's children (Acts 17:29) - and that the debt owing steward represents the lost child of God.

    But for some - the "Bible is not enough" --

    Fine. So we get to the "Word of man" admitting to the obvious point of all mankind being the children of God as stated in Acts 17:28-29

     
  13. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I accept.

    There is no such "children of God concept of Paul" in Acts 17 and HE deos NOT declare all mankind to be children of God.

    Paul declares...." For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring."

    #1, "genos"(Greek) "kin" can be interpreted literally or figuratively. The reader must decide which interpretation to teach according to all other scripture concerning the topic. #2 Offspring does not equal children of God according to God as Jesus points out...

    Jhn 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed ; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
    Jhn 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
    Jhn 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

    Do you see how Jesus distinguishes between "seed"(offspring) and "children"? Being "seed" does not make one a "child" as defined in scripture . "Children of God" is a title given only to those who have true faith in the One true God. Secularly you can argue that all offspring are children, but not scripturally .

    Is Paul calling all mankind "children of God" in Acts 17? Allowing scripture to interpret scripture we find that to be called "children of God" one must have faith in God (this would be faith in the true God and not an UNKNOWN GOD).

    Paul declares....

    Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
    Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

    Scripture interpreting scripture we find that Paul does not consider all mankind to be children of God and that is why Paul says " genos " when speaking to the lost crowd in Acts 17. He wants them to understand that they are created in the image of God and that means no gold or silver inanimate objects.

    Brother, I don't know why you have taken such a position on such an elementary doctrine. All of mankind is simply not considered "children of God" throughout scripture. Maybe throughout paganism, but not throughout God's word.

    God Bless!
     
  14. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Brother, the comentaries you post only prove my point. Read them carefully!

    God Bless!
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    God said --

    Steaver you said

    But then you failed to actually QUOTE Acts 17 as I did and SHOW how the phrase "Children of God" does not mean what it says.

    And surely you have to admit - it would have helped your argument to actually prove your claim about Acts 17 could be supported in Acts 17.

    The commentaries I gave DID show that God is their FATHER their PARENT and that they are all His offspring even calling them children!

    How you can then deny that these details exist - would take "some explaining" in your post.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Jhn 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed ; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
    Jhn 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
    Jhn 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

    This is a reference to the regenerate or adopted child. Something I never claimed for the servant in that condition where "he OWES the great debt".

    If you follow the details of the argument - I claim he is a LOST child of God when he has that debt.

    Same point - having to be repeated now.
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I have an idea! Lets "read the text" and see if we find him saying that!

    That didn't take long.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Not to create another debate, but "genos" should not be translated "children". I use only the KJV and that is one reason why. Doctrines can get all twisted around. NOW I don't want to debate bible versions, so don't anybody go there! [​IMG] But I do now have some understanding as to why you are confused.

    God Bless!
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Both the translators and the commentaries show that the intent in the term "offspring" is to reference God as "Father" and the children of the father as "Children".

    The point made explicitly in Acts 17 is that the Father MUST be like the children so a wooden image will not work once we all admit that WE ARE the children of God. Hence my "highlight" of the terms "Father" and "parent" and "children" in the commentaries I quote.

    See?

    All translators use either "children" or "offspring" and FAther. Is it your contention that a Father's "offspring" are not "children"?
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Aside from that problem in your view - this seems to be a blind alley for your argument because you already admit that the servant of God that "owes" is in fact lost.

    How is this side trail helping you?
     
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