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Featured The Nature of the Church, OT and NT

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by John of Japan, Sep 19, 2018.

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  1. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Well, since that is all future, I don't worry about it.

    I like the term "the body of Christ," which occurs four times, arguably about a local church all four times:

    Ro 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
    1Co 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
    1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
    Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
     
    #61 John of Japan, Sep 20, 2018
  2. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    You mention the "early Greek City states," and that is legitimate for classical Greek. By the 1st century AD, since Rome ruled the Greek cities and the term "called out" no longer necessarily described the city ruling body.

    The Liddell and Scott classical lexicon says: "an assembly of the citizens regularly summoned, the legislative assembly, Thuc., etc."
     
    #62 John of Japan, Sep 20, 2018
  3. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    no, We are called out , but not "assembled" as yet.

    The local church was not referred to until believes were in separate cities, when referring to a local group in the epistles.

    This is not the local church
    Eph 5:32
    This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

    Perhaps you are saying if the OT believers meeting was a church?


    It was a type of an assembly to come, as shown by Marriage supper of the Lamb or perhaps Yom Kippur

    OT saints will join us
     
    #63 loDebar, Sep 20, 2018
  4. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    A good treatment of Dr. Weeks position of "local church only" is Edward H. Overby's The Meaning of Ecclesia in the New Testament. I found it on Amazon. However, since it's been long out of print it is a bit pricey for something that was 89 cents back in 1974.
     
    #64 Squire Robertsson, Sep 20, 2018
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  5. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    I quite understand that. My point was the word carries more meaning than the simplistic etymological ones put forth by some here. Words fall into and out of usage over the centuries.
     
    #65 Squire Robertsson, Sep 20, 2018
  6. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Well said.
     
    #66 John of Japan, Sep 20, 2018
  7. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Not true. Christ laid out the structure of the local church in Matt. 16 & 18, then the first local church was in one city: Jerusalem (Acts 2).

    I beg your pardon? So the officers of the church in the context (4:11) were officers of the universal church but not the local church? That doesn't make sense. "A text taken out of context is a pretext."
    Only in a general sense, but not in the well-defined NT sense of an organized body of local believers.

    You lost me. I don't know what you mean here. (I assume you are talking to me here.)
     
    #67 John of Japan, Sep 20, 2018
  8. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Ping group: Congregation of the Lord in the OT = Congregation of Jesus Christ = Church of Jesus Christ.
     
    #68 1689Dave, Sep 20, 2018
  9. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    sorry John,
    let me be clear, it was a universal church that had a local residence in Jerusalem and then specifically local churches in the epistles and first part of Revelation but not all usages
    Jesus was referring to a universal church of believers in the Gospels.

    Jesus was dealing with the world through local churches.

    Was an OT saint part of a NT local church?, no, but both are part of the Universal church of believers, the body of Christ.

    The complete body of believers has not been assembled yet but will be as the Marriage Supper of the Lamb
     
    #69 loDebar, Sep 20, 2018
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  10. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    yes, Psalms 2:22 and Hebrews 2:12

    but were all of the OT congregation righteous?
     
    #70 loDebar, Sep 20, 2018
  11. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Jesus could be referring to a universal church of believers in Matt. 16; I'll grant that. However, not in Matt. 18, where:

    1. Other individuals are mentioned who might assist in reconciliation in a local setting.
    2. The church is specifically said to be meeting in a location (gathered together, v. 20)

    This I will accept.
     
    #71 John of Japan, Sep 20, 2018
  12. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    It was a visible institutional State/Church with a mix of believers and non believers. The same way the Reformed view their institutional churches. But when Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross, nothing remained to make unbelievers Physical members of Israel, or physical Jews for that matter. The New Covenant Church is a continuation of the spiritual segment of the Old Testament Church.
     
    #72 1689Dave, Sep 20, 2018
  13. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    no, the Church is the body of Believers,
    Physical membership in Israel did not make one a believer, ie, Eli the priests sons and all the kings "who did evil in the sight of the Lord"
     
    #73 loDebar, Sep 20, 2018
  14. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    As I said, it was a visible institutional church/state as in the Reformation. Believers (saved) unbelievers (lost).
     
    #74 1689Dave, Sep 20, 2018
  15. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    ahh, yes two or three , a local church but all local churches, real believers, are part of the universal church individually
     
    #75 loDebar, Sep 20, 2018
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  16. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    unbelievers are not part of the body of Christ, usually when referring to a church we are referring to the body of Christ not the unbelievers we might share membership
     
    #76 loDebar, Sep 20, 2018
  17. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Church = assembly of whoever assembles. When Jesus abolished circumcision, he limited his assembly to believers only.
     
    #77 1689Dave, Sep 20, 2018
  18. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Another proof that the church did not exist in the OT is that the NT metaphors for the church all point to Christ. Since the incarnation had not happened yet in the OT, the church of Jesus Christ (not Moses or Abraham or David) also could not exist in the OT.

    1. It is His body, and He is the head (Eph. 5:23, Col. 1:18 & 25).
    2. It is a building, with Christ as the cornerstone (Ac 4:11, Eph 2:19—22,
    1 Pe 2:6-7).
    3. It is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:24-28).

    Without Christ earth in the incarnation, the church could not exist. It is for His glory, not that of any OT character: "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen" (Eph. 3:21).
     
    #78 John of Japan, Sep 20, 2018
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  19. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Clarify your position, Will David be in Heaven?
     
    #79 loDebar, Sep 20, 2018
  20. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    “Now I desire to remind you (even though you have been fully informed of these facts once for all) that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, later destroyed those who did not believe.” (Jude 5)
     
    #80 1689Dave, Sep 20, 2018
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