Which is the Jewish Sabbath - Saturday or Lunar?

Not to interrupt your ranting about "Adventists" and your "counting the words" whenever Christ is quoted in a way that does not please you ---

But since Barnes was SOOOO insightful on the text that you flee from -- (you know - question ONE from page ONE of this thread) Lets try him on some other texts!

You know ---question TWO and text TWO for you to ignore without end.

 

Did anyone read this link?

http://www.sdaoutreach.org/prophet.cfm

 

In Acts 15 we see a reference to the fact that even Gentile Christians had access to the Word of God for "Moses is read every Sabbath". How did this relate to the very "small" set of instructions that came out of that council?

Upon what was the prohibition against things "strangled" based?


Give up?

(Started 'counting words' again?)

Albert Barnes didn't -

What a great link - eh?

 

So - do you 'see Gentiles' at worship on Sabbath in ... Acts 13?

Or maybe you are back to "counting words"

 

In John 14:15 Christ said "IF you Love Me KEEP My commandments". Assuming that you do not totally reject exegesis - what is the pre-cross context for "My Commandments" when God is the one speaking?

Do they include "the Ten Commandments"?

Should Christians reject the words of Christ in John 14:15 the way Linda and Boanerges seem to turn a blind eye to His words in Mark 2:27?

What say you?

In Christ,

Bob

 

great link! have you checked this one out?

http://www.seekgod.ca/bradscott4.htm

 

In Isaiah 66 we see once again that scope of "ALL MANKIND" being assigned to Christ the Creator's Seventh-day Sabbath just as He did in Mark 2:27.

Should we simply ignore what God says there like some are doing with Mark 2:27??

God says "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" - but can't we just turn a blind eye to that "New Heavens and New Earth" prediction of God - treating scripture as "breakable" instead of "unbreakable"??

Isn't that (and counting the words we find there of course) the really important thing?

Seriously - You guys have been a great deal of fun today. Keep up the good work!

In Christ,

Bob

 

I have a better idea - how about counting the number of "off-topic" links included on this thread as those who "are counting words" look for ways to divert this topic to another subject that does not have so many "inconvenient details"

 

I sure did, Boanerges!! Great site!!

 

The reason why I counted the number of words in Mark 2:27 was because you seem to use that verse as a "proof" text for the Church to keep the Sabbath. It seems that everyone has to have their "proof" text for their "doctrines". I guess yours is Mark 2:27.

Here's something from Way of Life Encyclopedia about the Gentiles and Sabbath worship from Acts 13--actually it covers more than just Acts 13.

BTW--did you know that there are 31,173 verses in the KJV of the Bible.

 

I would bet that every last one of you here knows perfectly well what "Law" the Bible is referring to here in these passages and I would also bet that you know that God is not giving the slightest hint that we are now, because of the death of Christ on the cross for our sins... free to go out and sin or transgress that Law.

1Jn:3:4: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Rom:6:2:
1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2:God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom:6:15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Rom:3:31: Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

And if any of you are going to put forth the idea that for some reason you are now free to pull out the 4th Commandment from that same Law and claim that we no longer have to keep THAT one... you had better have a darn good amount of Biblical ground to stand on.


The burden of proof is upon YOU to explain to us why suddenly the 4th commandment has been done away with because we are under grace.

What is your Biblical proof that THAT particular commandment is perfectly fine to transgress out of the Law of God now that we are under grace.

I would venture to say that you could search the Bible the rest of your lives and never be able to come up with one bit of evidence to prove that.

If God says we are NOT free to go out and transgress His Law now that we are under grace then that is just EXACTLY what He means.

...and in all actuality you are putting yourselves in league with this man here, that man of SIN, that man of Lawlessness:

2 Thessalonians 2:
1: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5: Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6: And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10: And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

...that man who claims that it is his perogative to change the very Law of God and stand in the place of God.


Claudia

 

The only Bible verse that people can manage to come up with to try to support their idea that the 7th day Sabbath no longer applies is an abuse of the Bible. The point to a verse about sabbaths that doesnt even apply to the 7th day Sabbath of the Ten Commandment Law.


Ceremonial Sabbaths

What was the result of blotting out the handwriting of ordinances?
"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Colossians 2:14-17.

Upon what were the ten commandments written?
"And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone." Deuteronomy 4:13.

In what manner were they written on these tables of stone?
"And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables." Exodus 32:16.
NOTE. - The law of God was engraved in stone, which would not admit of its being blotted out; neither would the expression "nailed to the cross" be applicable to tables of stone.

For whom was the weekly Sabbath made?
"And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:" Mark 2:27.
NOTE. - If made for man, it could not well be one of those things that were against Him.

When was the Sabbath made?
"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." Genesis 2:1-3.

What was man's condition then?
"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." Genesis 1:31.

Had man faithfully obeyed God from the beginning, would He have been counted a sinner?
"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." Romans 2:13.

For what purpose were the sabbaths instituted which formed a part of the "handwriting of ordinances?"
"Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Colossians 2:17. They pointed forward to Christ.

To what does the Sabbath of the fourth commandment direct the mind? Back to creation.
"For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." Exodus 20:11.

Were there any sabbath days in the old dispensation that were local and shadowy?
"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation." Leviticus 23:24.
"Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD. And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God. For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people. And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people. Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath." Leviticus 23:27-32.

What were these days for?
"These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day." Leviticus 23:37.

Were these entirely distinct from the seventh-day Sabbath?
"Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD." Leviticus 23:38.
NOTE. - It is very evident from the study of this subject that the "Sabbath of the Lord" and the shadowy sabbaths were altogether different institutions, and that they were for widely different purposes. The first was to commemorate God's great creative work, while the others were shadows, pointing to the substance, Christ. When He to whom they directed the mind was come, they were no longer needed; for since His death the memory of Him is preserved through the memorial of the Lord's Supper.

 

...and the only other texts people can come up with to try to sustain their claim that the 7th day Sabbath has been obliterated are these...


There're eight texts in the New Testament that mention the first day of the week. Look at them carefully.
Matthew 28:1
Mark 16:1, 2.
Mark 16:9.
Luke 24:1.
John 20:1.
John 20:19.
Acts 20:7, 8.
1 Corinthians 16:1, 2.
The first five texts simply state that the women came to the sepulcher early on the resurrection morning, and that Jesus rose from the dead.
Now look up John 20:19 in your Bible. It tells us that Jesus appeared to the disciples later on the resurrection day. It says that the reason they were assembled was "for fear of the Jews."
They were scared. No telling when the Jews might grab them and treat them to the same fate as their Master. They were hiding.
They had seen their beloved Master die on Friday. They "returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment." Luke 23:56. And now they're hiding with the doors shut "for fear of the Jews." John 20:19.
There's no mention of a change.
The seventh text is Acts 20:7, 8. It says "and upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together."
This was a night meeting — the dark part of the first day of the week. In Bible reckoning, the dark part of the day comes before the light part. Genesis 1:5 — "and God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day." The dark part comes first.
The Bible reckons a day from sunset to sunset.
The seventh day begins at sunset Friday evening. The first day of the week begins sunset Saturday evening.

Paul is together with his friends on the dark part of the first day of the week — Saturday night. This is a farewell get-together. He preached until midnight, when poor Eutychus falls out the window. (Acts 20:9).
You can imagine how relieved they were when it was found that God spared his life. Verse eleven says that they talked till the break of day and then Paul departed. Verse thirteen shows that Paul spent that Sunday morning traveling to Assos.
There's nothing here either concerning a change of the Sabbath.
The New English bible translates this text like this:
"On the Saturday night, in our assembly for the breaking of bread, Paul, who was to leave the next day, addressed them, and went on speaking until midnight." Acts 20:7.
The last text mentions the first day of the week in 1 Corinthians 16:1, 2.
It says — "Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come." Verse three tells that he will bring the offering to Jerusalem.
As he had done in Galatia, so Paul also requests of those in Corinth to have a collection all ready when he would come to take it to the poor saints in Jerusalem. There's nothing in the text about a church service, but each person is to "lay by him in store." The first day of the week was the best time for the people to set money aside because later in the week it would be spent. That's true today as well! Paul requested this so that "there be no gatherings when I come." 1 Corinthians 16:2.
At this time the Christians are suffering hardship in Jerusalem and Paul is making his rounds to the churches taking up a collection for them. (We should be that thoughtful today).
There's nothing in this text either about a change of God's Sabbath to Sunday.
Concerning worship, what was Paul's custom?
Here it is.
"And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three Sabbaths reasoned with them out of the scriptures." Acts 17:2.
Jesus, as our example also had the custom of attending church on Saturday, the seventh day. (Luke 4:16).


THATS IT. And so the fact that the Bible clearly says that because we are under grace we are not therefore free to transgress God's Law, we are not free to SIN... is ample proof that the 7th day Sabbath still applies and in fact, it is the central REASON that we are to keep God's Law in the first place, because HE IS THE CREATOR!

..and we arent. Therefore we are not keeping in our place when we think we can just arbitrarily decide, "Hey today I think I am going to pick out one of God's Commandments and do away with it!" or... "Hey today I think I am going to change the 4th Commandment to Sunday!"

You know why it is not ok to do that?

BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT GOD.

(which of course, goes without saying.)

or at least it SHOULD go without saying.

 

And disguise it as you may, all you so-called "Protestants" are doing today is hopping into bed with the Roman Catholic Church.


Mt:15:3: But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Mk:7:9: And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.


"And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws. " Daniel 7.25.


"The Pope is of so great authority and power that he can modify, explain, or interpret, even divine laws....The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man but of God, and he acts as vicegerent of God upon earth with most ample power of binding and loosing the sheep."-From the Prompta Bibliotheca published in 1900 in Rome by the press of the propaganda.

"The pope has power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ."-Decretal de Translat, Episcop. Cap.

The pope's will stands for reason. He can dispense above the law, and of wrong make right by correcting and changing laws."-Pope Nicholas, Dis. 96.

It is within the inspired words "think to change times and laws" that we discover the "mark of the beast."

The following are all authentic quotations that will definitely answer our questions as to what the "mark of the beast" is. Notice them carefully.

"The Catholic Church for over one thousand years before the existence of a Protestant, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday."-Catholic Mirror, Sept. 23, 1893.

You will notice in this information that the Church declares that it was not God Who changed the day from Saturday to Sunday but that they, the papists, were the ones who made this change. The Sabbath was officially changed by the Papacy at the Council of Laodicea on March 7, 364 A.D. That was 43 years after Constantine declared Sunday the day for Christians to honor as a rest day.

"Question.-Have you any other way of proving that the church has power to institute festivals of precept?"

"Answer.-Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her,-she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority."-Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism, p. 174.

This quotation emphasizes the fact that since the world accepts Sunday as a day of worship, this acknowledges her supremacy.

"I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to any one who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, 'Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.' The Catholic Church says, 'No; by my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day, and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.' and lo! The entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church. 'Priest Enright, C.S.S.R., Kansas City, Missouri.

There is no question concerning the changing of Sabbath the seventh day to Sunday the first day by the Papacy. You can readily see that there is nothing to be found in the Bible about changing the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday. The Papacy is correct in stating that they changed the day.

"In reply to a letter of October 28, 1895, to Cardinal Gibbons, asking if the church claimed the change of the Sabbath as her mark, the following was received: 'Of course the Catholic church claims that the change was her act .... And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical power and authority in religious matters.'-C.F. Thomas, Chancellor."

Sunday is the mark of authority of the Roman Catholic Church. It is the "Mark of the Beast." Of this there is absolutely no question, either in the Word of God or in history.

 

Is anybody aware that there are sometimes MORE than just the 7th Day Sabbath? During the Passion week, there was a HIGH SABBATH.

The Lord Jesus was placed on the cross about 9:00 A.M. our time and was there until about 4:00 P.M. It was on Wednesday! He was taken down from the cross and placed in the tomb before sunset- before the beginning of the sabbath. Note that this was not the beginning of the regular weekly sabbath at sunset on Friday, but a `high sabbath'-a Passover sabbath which came on Thursday that week! [See Le 23:5-7, where we find that the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread was a sabbath day.]

John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

What do you do with this Sabbath?

 

Sunday, the "Mark of the Beast"? Show the scriptures--and not what the RCC says--where Sunday is the "Mark of the Beast".

Sorry for the long post--this is from Way of Life Encyclopedia about Sunday--the entire thing.

SUNDAY

The first day of the week. Christians worship the Lord on this day because of the following Bible facts:

BIBLE EVIDENCE THAT EARLY CHRISTIANS WORSHIPPED ON SUNDAY:

1. On the first day Jesus rose from the dead (Mr 16:9).

2. On the first day Jesus first appeared to his disciples (Mr 16:9).

3. On the first day Jesus met with the disciples at different places and repeatedly (Mr 16:9-11; Mt 28:8-10; Lu 24:34; Mr 16:12-13; Joh 20:19-23).

4. 4. On the first day Jesus blessed the disciples (Joh 20:19).

5. On the first day Jesus imparted to the disciples the gift of the Holy Spirit (Joh 20:22).

6. On the first day Jesus commissioned the disciples to preach the gospel to all the world (Joh 20:21; with Mr 16:9-15).

7. On the first day Jesus ascended to Heaven, was seated at the right hand of the Father and was made Head of all (Joh 20:17; Eph 1:20).

8. On the first day many of the dead saints arose from the grave (Mt 27:52-53).

9. The first day became the day of joy and rejoicing to the disciples (Joh 20:20; Lu 24:41).

10. On the first day the gospel of the risen Christ was first preached (Lu 24:34).

11. On the first day Jesus explained the Scriptures to the disciples (Lu 24:27,45).

12. On the first day the purchase of our redemption was completed (Ro 4:25).

13. On the first day the Holy Spirit descended (Ac 2:1). Pentecost was on the 50th day after the sabbath following the wave offering (Le 23:15-16). Thus Pentecost was always on a Sunday.

14. The Christians met to worship on the first day (Ac 20:6-7; 1Co 16:2). Sunday is "the Lord's Day" (Re 1:10) (D.M. Canright, Seventh-day Adventism Renounced).

Since those days, the vast majority of Christians have always met to worship on the Lord's day. They do this in honor of the resurrection of their Savior. Christ was in the tomb during the sabbath, and rose as the firstborn from the dead on the first day. The sabbath signifies the last day of the old creation (Ge 2:2). Sunday is the first day of the new creation.

HISTORICAL EVIDENCE THAT EARLY CHRISTIANS WORSHIPED ON SUNDAY.

The Epistle of Barnabas (about A.D. 100). "Wherefore, also we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead."

The Epistle of Ignatius (about A.D. 107). "Be not deceived with strange doctrines, nor with old fables, which are unprofitable. For if we still live according to the Jewish Law, we acknowledge that we have not received grace ... If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death."

Justin Martyr (about A.D. 140). "And on the day called Sunday all who live in cities or in the country gather together in one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read. ... But Sunday is the day on which we all hold a common assembly, because it is the First day of the week on which God ... made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead."

Bardesanes, Edessa (A.D. 180). "On one day the first of the week, we assemble ourselves together."

Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 194). "He, in fulfillment of the precept, according to the gospel, keeps the Lord's Day ... glorifying the Lord's resurrection in himself."

Tertullian (A.D. 200). "We solemnize the day after Saturday in contradiction to those who call this day their sabbath."

Irenaeus (about A.D. 155-202). "The Mystery of the Lord's Resurrection may not be celebrated on any other day than the Lord's Day, and on this alone should we observe the breaking off of the Paschal Feast."

Cyprian (A.D. 250). "The eighth day, that is, the first day after the sabbath, and the Lord's Day."

Apostolic Constitutions (A.D. 250). "On the day of the resurrection of the Lord-that is, the Lord's Day-assemble yourselves together without fail, giving thanks to God and praising Him for those mercies God has bestowed upon you through Christ."

Anatolius (A.D. 270). "Our regard for the Lord's resurrection which took place on the Lord's Day will lead us to celebrate it."

Peter, Bishop of Alexandria (A.D. 306). "But the Lord's Day we celebrate as a day of joy, because on it, he rose again."
Way of Life Encylopedia of the Bible

 

Tell you what - I will go into Col 2 since it does NOT say "We are not under the Mosaic Law" and you go into the "inconvenient detail" of the Words of Christ in Mark 2:27.

Me first.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Then of course I proceded to show due diligence in "good faith" by following up on this offer with my review of Col 2

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3598/4.html#000055

But of course - Linda is "in the business of ignoring" scripture that displeases her so "dead silence on the Mark 2 side of that deal".

How "surprising".

In Christ,

Bob

 

By the way a good refernce in that post above to ECF's (as the RC members here do) "instead of" the Word of God.

But of course if you are "in the business of ignoring God's Word" I can see how that RC model would work for you. So - no big surprise there.

In Christ,

Bob

 

When two Sabbaths coincide (obviously).

In the case of the death of Christ - Crucified on Friday - Christ the Creator's own Seventh-day Holy Day and the PAssover Holy Day were the same day!

In Christ,

Bob

 

The Augsburg Confession by Philip Melanchthon (1530)


In 1530, Charles V, Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, called together the princes and cities of his german territories in a Diet at Augsburg. He sought unity among them to fend off the attacks of Turkish armies in Eastern Austria. He called upon the Lutheran nobility to explain their religious convictions, with the hope that the controversy swirling around the challange of the Reformation might be resolved. To this end, Philip Melanchthon, a close friend of Martin Luther and a Professor of New Testament at Wittenberg University, was called upon to draft a common confession for the Lutheran Lords and Free Territories. The resulting document, the Augsburg Confession was presented to the emperor on June 25, 1530. (This is from Article XXVIII: Of Ecclesiastical Power or The Power of Bishops

Moreover, it is disputed whether bishops or pastors have the right to introduce ceremonies in the Church, and to make laws concerning meats, holy-days and grades, that is, orders of ministers, etc. They that give this right to the bishops refer to this testimony John 16, 12. 13: I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth. They also refer to the example of the Apostles, who commanded to abstain from blood and from things strangled, Acts 15, 29.

They refer to the Sabbath-day as having been changed into the Lord's Day, contrary to the Decalog, as it seems. Neither is there any example whereof they make more than concerning the changing of the Sabbath-day. Great, say they, is the power of the Church, since it has dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments!