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God's Purpose Accord to Election

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Reformed, Oct 10, 2018.

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  1. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Romans 9:6-24 6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 9 For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.” 10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” 13 Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”

    14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

    19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

    Romans 9 contains a portion of scripture that Monergists and Synergists have hotly debated for what seems like ages. Does God choose both who will inherit eternal life (the Elect) and also those who will be damned? How can God choose one group without a de facto choice of the other group? While Monergists and Synergists have debated this issue, there have been long-standing debates within the Monergist camp. Sticking our heads in the sand and not discussing this topic is intellectually dishonest. We should talk about it because it gives us a better understanding of God and the great doctrine of election. I have my own opinion on the subject and I base it on what I believe scripture teaches. After all, should that not be our final arbiter?

    This post is just to introduce the topic by posing the question.
     
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  2. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    My own personal view has vacillated between double-predestination and God's active choice of His elect and His passive choice of the condemned. Here is what I do know. God, the Father does not choose the Elect based on any foreseen faith on the part of an individual and then "elects" them based on that foreseen faith. Such a view makes God's choice in election contingent on something a man does, which is a central part of the disagreement between Monergists and Synergists. I also reject the corporate view of election, in that God has chosen His elect and then populates it with the individual choices of men. I am convinced, by scripture*, that God the Father actively and purposely chooses each and every member of the Elect. He does so after the counsel of His own will and without any contingent action on the part of the individual. So, if God purposely chooses the elect, what about those who are not chosen? Can a person who is not chosen inherit eternal life? It really is not a hard question to answer. The only thing that is hard is dealing with the reactions of those who are going to disagree with you. The short answer is no - a person who is not elect cannot come to faith in Jesus Christ. In their heart of hearts, I do not believe Mongerists disagree with that statement. The intramural debate between Monergists is over the free offer of the Gospel. Is the Gospel to be freely proclaimed to all? The answer to that question is a resounding "Yes!"

    Hyper-Calvinism has no one definition, but most people who describe it say that it teaches the Gospel is not to be proclaimed to all; that it is only to be proclaimed to the Elect. That belief errs because it somehow supposes we know who each member of the elect is. The fact is that we do not know who is elect. What we do know is that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation to all who believe (Rom. 1:16). The Gospel is to be freely proclaimed to all people. We are to proclaim it, believing that all can believe it. We lack perfect knowledge. All we are are instruments in the Master's hand. We proclaim the Gospel, all while understanding that it is the Spirit of God that prevails upon the hearts of men. So, does God the Father actually choose the condemned or does He simply skip over them? I know how Synergists are going to respond to this, because they reject the Monergist view of election, to begin with. This question really is for Monergists. While this thread is open to all, I am especially interested in hearing from other Monergists on what you believe about the free offer of the Gospel and God's role in choosing who is elect and who is not.

    *Rom. 9:11, 18; Eph. 1:4
     
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  3. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    What it all boils down to is pride, @Reformed. Ppl don't like having authority ripped out of their hands. They also hate the thought(s) of not being able to do something, I.E. make a choice. You take the choice away from them and they go berserk.
     
  4. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

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    Quite frankly I don't think God is too happy with the thought some say he hasn't given all men choice either. :Cool
     
  5. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    @Reformed, you hit the nail on the head. God's electing undeserving sinners to live with Him for all eternity is the over-arching theme throughout the bible.

    We can read this Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”[Genesis 6:5-7] But then there's this But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.[vs 8] So, we can see that Noah was no different than the others, or it could not be said But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. If Noah found favor(grace) in God's sight, then that was unmerited favor.


    Then a little later on we can also read in Genesis 12 that God sought Abram out, seeing he was a pagan[Joshua 24:2].

    Then David was tending to the sheep in the mountains when Samuel came seeking for "one who a man after God's own heart."[1 Samuel 13:14 and Acts 13:22]

    This narrative is all over the bible...God is the seeker, we were running from Him, and not seeking Him.
     
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  6. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Does anyone really think that God would have chosen a different man if Noah had refused to build the ark or if Abram decided not to willingly offer up his only son? God did not choose those two men based on seeing their future obedience. That does not mean either man was a robot. They did choose, but they did so according to the purpose of God. Both of those things run concurrently, God's sovereignty and man's choices, but the latter is subject to the former.
     
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  7. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    That especially goes against the Western ethos. We like to think we are in charge of our own lives. The Bible really does not give us a detailed backstory on Job, but I would not be surprised if Job as a little bit proud and self-satisfied given his great wealth. We Nebuchadnezzar was filled with pride. God brought both men low in different ways. God granted both men repentance and contrition and restored them. We may have a season in our life when we feel we are the master of our own universe, but God has His ways of humbling us. We cannot run far enough away to escape Him with whom we have to do.
     
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  8. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    God commands all mankind to Love God and Love Neighbor.

    God also commands that no one sin.


    If God commands that you sit down. Take a hint, it means he wants you to sit down.
     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Without getting into particulars, we should be careful not to conflate God's absolute omniscience with His sovereign purpose and election.
     
  10. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Not getting into particulars is what gave us non-Calvinism
     
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  11. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

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  12. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

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    Well you're right....Hyper-Calvinism doesn't make sense.

    You see this is why your teaching doesn't add up. It's one thing spending time with people sharing the gospel knowing at least they're being given their chance. It's entirely a different thing to have God telling you to share the gospel with ALL with him all along not ever going to give such ones a chance. God says redeem the time for the days are evil, ( Eph 5:16) in other words make good use of your time. Such is God's will. So why would God contradict himself by telling you to engage in a thing with no purpose? Yes the sinner may reject the gospel but at least the space given for repentance was there, thus a purpose served. So where's the logic, where's the wisdom in God having you waste our time?
     
  13. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Here is the biblical definition of unconditional election...

    “The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.[Deuteronomy 7:7,8]

    There was nothing special in Israel that made God love them. They were not better ppl than the Egyptians, Assyrians, Syrians, Hivites, Hittites, Jebusites, Jerichoites, et al. He loved them just because He loved them.

    No other nation of ppl did God say He loved them. No other nation did He entrust the oracles of God to. No other nation had a sacrificial system that stayed their sins from year-to-year.

    Carry this thought of loving His own over into the NT...

    “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep."[John 10:11] I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
    I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.
    [John 10:14-16] My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”[John 10:27-30] Now before the Feast of the Passover, Jesus knowing that His hour had come that He would depart out of this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end.[John 13:1] “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life."[John 17:1b,2] “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word."[John 17:6] I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;[John 17:9] “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me."[John 17:20,21] Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world."[John 17:24]

    As you can see in these many verses I posted, the Christ was speaking about a very specific group of ppl in those verses. These ppl are His sheep, those the Father gave Him. He came to redeem them from the rest of fallen humanity.
     
  14. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Unconditional Favoritism.

    Very Christlike example to follow. I'm Thanos.

    Thanos.jpg
     
  15. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Your pop culture analogy is flawed. Thanos showed no favortism, no mercy.

    It is unseemly to compare our Lord and Savior to this fictious character. Probably crosses the line into blasphemy.
     
  16. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    If you are addressing a post by Ut(I have him on ignore), that's him being par for his course.
     
  17. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    You are correct they are different.

    Our Lord and Savior is not monster. I don't even have to defend God he defends me. If anyone tries to accuse God of being evil it is a flat out joke to me, he certainly and obviously good. The Character of Jesus Christ.

    Our view of God is not the same at all.

    If I compare how some folks view God, it makes Thanos looks like a SAINT.

    Thanos doesn't send anyone to hell. In his mind he is trying to save the universe.

    The monster frequently portrayed as God here sends folks to hell for his glory, He authors sin,

    He tells everyone I have a commandment that I want everyone to follow, but secretly doesn't want everyone to follow and randomly gives capacity.

    Think about it. It is a COMMAND from God that no one should sin. But if I asked you does God REALLY want everyone to be a Saint and Saved? You are going to look me in the face and say NO.

    I know my answer is yes.

    People sin and people fall. Why? well its because they are totally depraved God did not give them the capacity or grace to handle it. God hasn't given them the gnostic voodoo to do or understand anything right.

    I know my answer is they sin because its THEIR fault. Not the excuse after excuse we repeatedly hear.


    The "God" often portrayed is flat out evil of course if I actually believed that, fear keeps me in check, I would say everything he does is good and righteous no matter what you see. I would be in terror of being smited instantly by God.

    Way different views of God. Its between one that always lets you know "you deserve to go to hell" and nother who says you mean more to him then his SON.


    Its a philosophy based on how would absolute power show Love and Kindness Versus how would Love and Kindness show absolute power.

    When you get a sinful person to sit down and ponder how he would behave with absolute power, you get a flawed corrupt version of God.

    As the saying goes "Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely."
     
  18. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I believe a Christlike spirit is necessary to discuss scripture and these differing views. If you cannot accurately state your opponent's point of view, you are not demonstrating a Christlike spirit.
     
  19. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    I apologize if I'm misrepresenting the position I am all ears. I'm not going to insist you believe anything you don't.

    If you want to give the me the rundown of TULIP or the Doctrines of Grace as you understand it. That would be nice.
     
  20. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I'm happy to discuss any issue as long as the focus is scripture. I promise not to call you names, question your intelligence or pretend to know what motivates your opinions.

    So, how do you see the 1 Cor passage that says the "natural man" is not able to understand the things of the spirit because they are spiritually appraised?
     
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