Christus Victor

You are under no obligation to reply to me at any time, but I will reply to you
When I believe that your posts are at variance with the truth.[edited]

I do not 'affirm' this and I cannot imagine how you can possibly believe that I do. The plain and simple words of many (not all) ECFs show that they understood and agreed with the principle of the Doctrine of Penal Substitution even if they did not call it such or write long books about it. If I have the time and energy I will write as many as I can find out in full on a new thread so that there will be no confusion.

I will end by quoting from Pierced for our Transgressions by Jeffrey, Ovey and Sach from where I have taken many of the quotations (others found on line or in various books including The Early Church Fathers by Henry Bettenson):

We....have demonstrated that the doctrine of penal substitution has been affirmed from the earliest days of the Christian Church, and has continued to find a place in the mainstream of Christian theology throughout the last 2,000 years. Moreover, our study of Athanasius has shown that penal substitution was not an unimportant doctrine among the Church fathers, relegated to the sidelines and overshadowed by other, more significant themes. On the contrary, for this major figure at least, penal substitution was considered central to the Christian faith and a foundational element in God's plan.
We saw in Chapter 2 that penal substitution is biblical. As we emphasized at the start of this chapter, that counts for much more than the fact that lots of people throughout church history have believed it. However, it is reassuring to find that our understanding of the biblical texts has a long and distinguished pedigree.

 

Amen. None of which means God being reconciled to us.

Just because when you get angry at someone it doesn't mean you hate them and they are not your friend.

God doesn't need to change his mind about you. He doesn't need to repent. You need to repent.

 

God doesn't change His mind and nor does He repent. In eternity past He set His love upon a vast crowd of ungodly sinners and gave them to Christ to redeem at measureless cost. If you are one of them, He is showing His longsuffering by putting up with all your nonsense on this board. However, that does not mean that He is not angry at sin, and that He will not punish sinners. But for those whom He has given to Christ, the punishment has already taken place on the cross, that God might be 'just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.'

 

". In eternity past He set His love upon a vast crowd of ungodly sinners and gave them to Christ to redeem at measureless cost. "

All your saying is he doesn't forgive at all. And you have no scripture to support this unless you butcher Ephesians out of context.

Epheisains 1

4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

Frequently butchered verse, Because it neglects you have to be IN CHRIST. And you have not been in Christ before.

Ephesians 2

12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

BUT NOW IN CHRIST, Meaning you were not before.

When where you ever excluded having no hope and no God?



Romans 3 : 26

26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus

HE WOULD BE. You butcher and chop that line. Because it doesn't say have always been from "eternity past" justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

 

Either God is both just and merciful or He can be neither. (Romans 3:23-26; 1 John 2:2.)

[C. S. Lewis did not understand the finished work of Christ, in that he did believe in purgatory. Check this out.]

 

His justice is mercy.

Folks need to Tell us the meaning of this word Tzedakah.


You cannot split God's Mercy from his Justice.


I can always count on certain folk here to see God's justice as a thumbs down to another. Devoid of kindness, mercy and love.

A lifeless justice devoid of any compassion who's supreme sadistic needs are paramount, with a law made for its service rather than help the people.


In short what some people here claim is Justice is anything but justice in the biblical sense of the word. But of a pagan's sadistic retributive 'justice'.

 

Identify that point of truth one or the other denies.

 

So if no one was to be saved, that would be justice, but would that be mercy?

 

@JonC , have you read J.I. Packer's lecture on penal substitution? I ask because it is one of the most scholarly treatments I have read on the view apart from a textbook.

 

How God's holy justice satisfied?

 

On the contrary, God forgiveness is free, but not cheap. There are certain things that God cannot do. One of those is that He cannot deny Himself (2 Timothy 2:13). He cannot justify the wicked.(Exodus 23:7 etc.). But on the cross, 'God made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him' (2 Corinthians 5:21). On the cross, all, the sins of God's people were laid upon Christ's sinless shoulders and His perfect righteousness credited to them (Isaiah 53:6).

I don't need to go anywhere near Ephesians. That the Father gave to the Son a people to redeem, of whom He will not lose one, is clear from John 6:40; 10:27-29; 17:2, 6.

In the providence of God, His people were given to Christ from eternity past. Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. You need to understand that while God may do a new thing, He never makes a new plan, for if He did, the new one would be either better or worse than the old one, and God would either improve or decline, both of which are impossible (Malachi 3:6; Hebrews 13:8). All God's plans, therefore, are made in eternity, but come to fruition in time (c.f. 1 Peter 1:20; Titus 1:2).

God's plan of salvation was indeed made in eternity, but it came to fruition in time. Now, in Christ Jesus, I who was once far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. Christ's blood availed for me because God gave me to Christ Jesus to redeem.

Before I was saved.

One of us does, but it isn't me.

Christians are not justified from eternity past-- we are justified when we repent and trust in Jesus. But we were given to Christ to redeem before time began (Jeremiah 31:3; Ephesians 1:4-5).

 

<post reported_goodbye>

 

Ah, the fall did not negate man being made in God's image. Else killing another person would not be murder (Genesis 9:6).