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Featured How was Christ Forsaken?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JonC, Dec 5, 2018.

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  1. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    First... In the first line you state the cup to be "Blessings" and "Wrath." Then you equate it with "God's will." So... which is it; there are now three choices.

    It's a cup of wrath in Gethsemane... [edited]

    The Archangel
     
    #181 The Archangel, Dec 8, 2018
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Hey brother,

    From what I understand of your reply you are having trouble grasping the concept that the Bible uses "the cup" to represent various situations other than divine wrath. If so, then perhaps your struggle is an inability to divorce your presuppositions from the text of Scripture.

    If that is the case there are a few resources I would recommend. The Hermeneutical Spiral by Grant Osborne may help. It is not at an advanced level, but if you find it difficult consider Grasping God's Word by Duvall and Hayes. Both are good works, and either could help you overcome (or at least identify) what you bring into the text.

    If you need any other suggestions please don't hesitate to reach out.

    I will offer you this for consideration as well - Jesus told the Disciples they would also drink from his cup. Do you believe the Disciples also drank of God's wrath?


    John
     
    #182 JonC, Dec 8, 2018
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    You are mocking here what the majority of Reformed and Baptists see though as the primary way to explain how the atonement was provided to us thru the Cross of Christ!
     
    #183 Yeshua1, Dec 8, 2018
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    No, rather Jesus tasted and experienced hell for us upon that Cross so that none of us redeemed would ever have to!
     
    #184 Yeshua1, Dec 8, 2018
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    When it comes to the symbolism of the cup there are many biblical uses.

    In Psalm 23 the psalmist refers to his cup overflowing (blessings). The cup is also used as a "cup of wrath" when so qualified. And of course, it is also God's will and the situation itself (Jesus telling the Disciples they will indeed share his cup - i.e., his sufferings).

    Many times "cup" is used as we would "fate".

    For those who have not done so, I strongly recommend taking a class on how to study and then how to study Scripture. In our culture today we have an issue with illiteracy in terms of comprehension. In our churches we have an issue with biblical illiteracy. We have to move away from subjective interpretation. And I recommend those resources I believe could help @The Archangel to any willing to learn.
     
    #185 JonC, Dec 8, 2018
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God never depurated from Jesus in the He ceased to be God, but in His humanity did experience being forsaken and separated from the father!
     
    #186 Yeshua1, Dec 8, 2018
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God poured out in full His wrath upon Jesus, not on Him for what he had done, but due to what he was doing for us!
     
    #187 Yeshua1, Dec 8, 2018
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I'd ask for a passage demonstrating this dualism, but as Dave Ramsey says, insanity is doing the same thing expecting different results.

    'cause I live in South Carolina- Go Tigers! :Biggrin
     
    #188 JonC, Dec 8, 2018
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Whatever happened to Jesus on that Cross was what happens to all those who have to atone for their own sins to a Holy God in the Judgment!
     
    #189 Yeshua1, Dec 8, 2018
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Except for the bit left in the bottom that the Disciples drank when they shared the cup.....right?
     
    #190 JonC, Dec 8, 2018
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Different context, as Jesus was referring to the Apostles would experience death and suffering for His name sake...
    His Cup was the Bowl of wrath only He was qualified to drink of!
     
    #191 Yeshua1, Dec 8, 2018
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Amusing that you talk down to him on how to understand what the scriptures teach, when he seems to understand it in this area better than you do!
     
    #192 Yeshua1, Dec 8, 2018
    • Agree Agree x 2
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I just take the forsaken Jesus experienced as being real, and not just quoting the scriptures!
     
    #193 Yeshua1, Dec 8, 2018
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    They would like Paul, be suffering for his sake for his afflictions, correct?
     
    #194 Yeshua1, Dec 8, 2018
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    This thread is past its expiration point and will be closed today. If there is more to discuss please start another thread to continue the discussion.
     
    #195 JonC, Dec 8, 2018
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You tell me.

    Jesus said they would share his cup. @The Archangel indicated the cup Christ drank was God's wrath. Did Paul suffer God's wrath?

    And Paul wasn't a Disciple. So maybe his suffering was not God's wrath. What do you think?
     
    #196 JonC, Dec 8, 2018
  17. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Does, cup = suffering
    suffering unto death


    or is there a difference?

    My thought being; Through the things he suffered he learned - the obedience. Therefore, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    Cup = suffering unto death and being dead until being quickened yet, to the Spirit.

    Therefore I ask, for what span of time was the judgement of the Father toward the Son?
    Why was Christ dead, three days and three nights?

    Just read Jon's last post so I will add:

    And be baptized with

    I believe, to be baptized, is different from the drinking of the cup. Not real sure just how.
     
    #197 percho, Dec 8, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    What about other uses (like in Psalm 23)?

    Or the cup of blessing Paul speaks of in 1 Corinthians?
     
    #198 JonC, Dec 8, 2018
  19. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Good questions.
     
    #199 percho, Dec 8, 2018
  20. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    The only thing quick I can come up with is:

    It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
     
    #200 percho, Dec 8, 2018
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