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Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by NetChaplain, Dec 4, 2018.

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  1. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain Well-Known Member
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    There can only be minimal appreciation (though in full possession) of that which derives from “life and godliness” (2Pet 1:3) if there be not settled assurance concerning the permanent efficacy of Christ’s redemption (unfailingly covers all sin). What fruit of redemption could there be that would be temporary, and greater still, what use could there be of such a work? There is at no time anything meaningful in a so-called temporal walk of faith, nor would it be sensible to conceive such as a work of God.

    None can find a demonstration in Romans Eight that one who “walks after the Spirit” can also “walk after the flesh.” Scripture exemplifies those appearing to be “in the Spirit” (v 9) by a nominal (in name only) outward profession of Christianity (Mat 15:8; Mar 7:6; Jam 2:18). But their inward state will eventually manifest their “departure” (1Tim 4:1) from a false profession of faith, and a “fall” (Gal 5:4) from an insincere pursuit of grace (1Tim 4:1; Gal 5:4; 1Jhn 2:19).

    Verse One in chapter Eight reveals evidence that those who are is Christ—“walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” This does not indicate that those who are reborn can walk after the flesh but rather the opposite, that they will not walk after the flesh, and the following verse explains why—“Because the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin.” Free, not that there will be no more sinning but that there will be no more will to sin (Heb 10:26).

    Walking after the flesh does not intend intermittent sin but a willingness to pursue a continuous lifestyle and state of sin, as was our condition prior to rebirth. I do not believe that the scriptural warnings and admonitions to believers represent what they might again desire after but rather what identifies them. It’s not as though one who is reborn can ever again desire to willfully sin.

    Hence the urgent significance concerning the doctrine of the permanency of salvation. If it’s not permanent it’s not redemption, because there is only one strain of salvation—“eternal salvation” (Heb 5:9). Regardless of how long or how sincere others may have appeared, discontinuing the Christian walk indicates (not confirms) a nonoccurrence of rebirth.

    The word “walk” is in reference to that which one wills to do outwardly, which is directed by that which is desired inwardly (natural or spiritual). What one wills to do has precedence over what is practically done. Thus our “will to do of His good pleasure” (Phl 2:13) is predominant in significance as to that which is done, because it’s the intention of our actions and not deeds which determines their quality.

    This defines the meaning of a “new heart,” which is ever desiring to please God, though knowing our actions will also include that which is undesirable due to the “old man” (Rom 7:15-20). For those reborn, their walk will progressively manifest that which is of the new nature more than that of the old, which between these two natures is how God is “glorified” (Mat 5:16; Jhn 15:8; 1Co 6:20; 10:31; Phl 1:11; 1Pe 2:12; 1Pe 4:11).

    NC
     
    #1 NetChaplain, Dec 4, 2018
  2. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    Rom 7:14-25 NASB
    14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I [would] like to [do,] but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want [to do,] I agree with the Law, [confessing] that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good [is] not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

    Paul demonstrates Romans 8 in Romans 7. Some people say Paul is saying "the devil made me do it" but that's not what Paul is saying at all. He's saying "it's not the real me who is sinning... it's the old me." Setting your mind on the things of the Spirit is merely identifying one's "true self" as who they are in Christ rather than who they are in the flesh. Paul recognizes that, for the believer they now have 2 natures residing within them - warring for control of the mind - the one place the two natures overlap.

    Rom 8:10
    If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

    The writer of Hebrews agrees with this split in natures for the believer:

    Heb 4:12
    For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

    Once separated, the flesh and spirit are judged separately. In fact, Paul makes clear in Romans 8 that the flesh is unregenerate and will die in it's sin on behalf of the spirit which has been made alive in Christ so as to survive the death of the body.


    Rom 8:3
    For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
    4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

    There are 2 ways to "fulfill the requirement of the Law." The first way is the way Jesus did, and that is to follow the law perfectly and be righteous. However, it is also a fulfillment of the law that sin is punished by death. What Paul is saying is that the Flesh is unregenerate and will die in it's sin. It contains the sin nature. The spirit is regenerated and is joined with the Holy Spirit. It is alive and has the Divine Nature. When our flesh dies, it FULFILLS the law that sin should be punished with death. However, because our spirit is alive, it survives the death of the body and is joined with Christ. We can see then how it is said that "death is swallowed up in victory" and "the last enemy to be destroyed is death" in 1 Corinthians 15. Once a person has died, and their flesh has fulfilled the law requiring death for sin, at the resurrection when the person recieves a new, spiritual body, that person and their new body will never again be subject to sin and death because their old body WILL HAVE ALREADY FULFILLED THE LAW as Romans 8:4 says.

    Rom 7:1
    Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
    2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.

    Once our bodies die, The Law no longer has jurisdiction over us. Fortunately, our spirit and body are separated because of faith so that our spirit can survive the death of the body.
     
    #2 Gup20, Dec 6, 2018
  3. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain Well-Known Member
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    Hi and appreciate your reply and good input! The "old man" is also known as "the flesh" (not the body but the nature of our spirit) and I agree that the old man is no longer us, though it still affects us, which is only to continue our learning. Though it is in us we are not in it (Rom 8:9), so God never again considers us after it, but after His Son.

    As I've mentioned, God uses everything to continue to teach us, thus I understand this dichotomy in the believer yet also continued learning. I believe part of the instruction here is knowing that the old nature will never again "reign" and "dominate" (Rom 6:12, 14), and between our "wrestling" with it (Eph 6:12), the Spirit's opposition to it (Gal 5:17) and the Father's "work in us" (Phil 2:13) we will always will against the sinful nature (which is the glory of rebirth), regardless of its affects.

    I think this is Paul's intention of his writing that he is like a "captive" (Rom 7:23) still being affected by the old man against his will and desire, but not enough to control us. Verse 25 demonstrates that with his old man (flesh, not the body but our Adamic nature affecting the soul) he still unwillingly at times serves sin, but more importantly with the mind (soul, which is where guilt is incurred) he willingly serves God.

     
    #3 NetChaplain, Dec 6, 2018
  4. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    Hebrews 10:1-2 (NASB) 1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins?

    We are still conscious of our sin, knowing good & evil, so we have not obtained our full inheritance as of yet. We will know when we have been completely redeemed because we will no longer have a consciousness of sin.

    Ephesians 1:13-14 (NASB) 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

    The divine nature indwelling us is merely a pledge of the full inheritance yet to come!
     
    #4 Gup20, Dec 14, 2018
  5. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain Well-Known Member
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    Hi and thanks for your reply and comments! Your perception is interestingly a bit different but my understanding concerning the use of "conscience of sins" (i.e. Heb 10:2) is not in reference to being aware of the presence of the sin nature but the awareness of being "purged" from the "condemnation" (Rom 8:1) and "dominion" (Rom 6:14) of it. In the prior Covenant with Israel they knew they would require repetitious sacrifices, but only once in the present Covenant.

    I believe "until the redemption of the purchased possession" is in reference the whole man. Presently only our spirit and soul are redeemed and cannot be further redeemed than it is now, due to efficacy of its completeness. But "the redemption of our body" (Rom 8:23) will complete the whole person, for it will be absent of the old man (sin nature), wherein the curse of death from sin lies.

    Blessings!
     
    #5 NetChaplain, Dec 14, 2018
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