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Featured Rebuttal of an Article on Jn. 6:44 by Dr. Flowers

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by The Biblicist, Jan 17, 2019.

  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    John 6:38-39.

    Does this passage actually say the saved had been given in Christ before He came to earth? Nope.

    It says the will of the Father is not to lose any who God has given to Him. Thus any time God gives a person to Christ, it is the Father's will that Christ not lose them. Thus the passage provides no support for God giving a person to Christ before Christ came to earth. In fact, no one was given (transferred into Christ) until Christ suffered and died on the cross.
     
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  2. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Active Member

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    I once heard someone say that the only thing involved in coming to saving faith in Christ is paper, ink and human intelligence. I don’t agree with that and I see “drawing” and “enabling” on God’s part going beyond simply “allowing” although I also do not see it as forced, fatalistic determination either.
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hi Dan,
    We do not come to saving faith, we come to faith, as worthless as it may be, but God either credits our faith as righteousness, or He doesn't as illustrated by the second and third soils of Matthew 13. Thus we are saved by grace through faith, and not of works.
     
  4. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Does my impulse to eat pizza come from pizza-god?


    Proof that you were drawn by God to Jesus, You were born.

    I guarantee the folks who are not born or exist will not come to Jesus as God has designed.


    Folks who don't think through God's capacity tend to make God dumb and attribute dumbed down human solutions of omnipotence that lack any real common sense.
     
  5. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    "I'm trying to point out Scriptures that just are as relevant as others are."

    I don't see one single hair of GOD commanding all not to sin, expressing his WANT and DESIRE in conflict with any other scripture at all.

    So we are back to square one. Does GOD want all to sin or not> you are already back peddling.

    "To me, your apparent desire for a clear-cut answer to the question "

    The command of God clear cut for me.

    Thank you for admitting my entire point.

    I'm not clueless about what God wants and desires in the command of God.

    I don't twiddle my thumbs and think gee he told us all not to sin.......nah.... he probably really does want someone to sin.

    I don't attribute God to deception where he lies about what he wants who is dependent on petty legalism to eliminate people he doesn't like To look like he is just

    That is a joke. I think believing God to be a coward is a sin folks should cease.
     
  6. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Active Member

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    If faith falls short of trusting in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation, then we don’t have saving faith. Shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away does not represent saving faith. Amen that we are saved by grace through faith, and not of works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)
     
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  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    To repeat, we never have "saving faith." We have faith that God credits as righteousness. No credit by God no salvation. Period. We are saved by grace through faith, not saved by grace and saving faith.
     
    #47 Van, Jan 21, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2019
  8. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Active Member

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    Yes, faith that God credits as righteousness/saved by grace through faith/faith that saves, which is all I’m saying.
     
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  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Why did you put in "faith that saves?" Say my faith is like a sows ear, not of any value or merit on its own. But God if He chooses, turns my "sows ear" faith into "silk purse" faith. Thus we are saved through faith. When scripture says "Your faith has saved you" it means our faith, although a worthless filthy rag, has be "credited" as righteousness. Ask yourself, how would a fallen person, whose every work of righteousness is a filthy rag to God, manufacture righteous faith? My answer, it is an impossibility. We are saved by grace through faith, not saved by grace and saving faith.
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Our faith itself comes from God, we literally do nothing to save ourselves!
     
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  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hi Y1, unless you support your assertions with specific references to scripture, your posts are your dubious opinions. Why does scripture refer to "your faith," "his faith" and never to God given faith? Why would God credit our faith as righteousness, if it was God's instilled faith? No answers, no scripture, just opinions.
     
  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The REASON faith is credited for righteousness is that the faith in view has for its proper object the person and work of Christ as declared in the gospel. The gospel had been preached to Abraham (Gal. 3:6-8). The value of faith is determined by its object, if it has no object it is not faith. The truth of the gospel is the "substance" as well as the "hope" of true Biblical justifying faith (Heb. 11:1).

    Faith in and of itself provides nothing to justify anyone. Only if that faith has for its sole object the provision of God in the Person and work of Jesus Christ does it have justifying value.
     
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  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The key here is understanding how the unwilling become willing. God changes the moral nature of the heart by writing his law upon it, which is a metaphorical expresssion to say he changes the enmity of the heart against God and His law unto love for God and his law. Look at Jer. 31:33-34 as this is one of the prophetic sources Jesus cites in John 6:45 to explain what "draw" means.

    But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    This is precisely the language used by Paul in 2 Cor. 3:3 of the New Covenant and is quoted by Paul in Hebrews 8 & 10 where he explicitly states it is the new covenant.
     
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  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Some may ask, why does not God do this for every single fallen human being instead of only the elect? If I may answer this question by another question, why does not God provide salvation for fallen angels? Is it because God's love is inferior and lacking? You see, your objection is equally valid for fallen angels who are moral rational creatures as much as we are.

    The limitations fall squarely within God's eternal purpose for redemption and his just grounds for condemning all of fallen man and angels. Hence, justice cannot be employed as an argument for why God does not save some fallen men and all of fallen angels because sins justly deserve eternal judgement. The proper question is why would God save any sinner at all. That answer falls squarely into the meaning of "grace" and grace is undeserved and thus cannot be demanded by any arguments based on justice. Let me illustrate what I mean:

    Suppose a house is on fire, and all the beings in that house started that fire, fanned its flame and rejoice in freely choosing to remain in the house resisting all attempts to open up exit avenues. Suppose God sent a fireman into the house and every being in that house turned on that fireman and killed him. Would it be just to allow all of them to continue not only in their free choice to stay in that house and fan the flames and love doing it while resisting and killing everyone that entered the house to save them? I think your answer would have to be yes. Now, suppose in spite of all that hatred and resistance, God determined he was going to save some of them despite their free choice to remain in the burning house by simply changing the moral inclination of their hearts to love him instead of hating him? At the time kept the house from being consumed until he removed those persons, thus being a blessing to those who remain whether they perceived it or not as a blessing. Does justice require he do that for all or is that an act of mercy and pure grace? We are saved by mercy and pure grace in spite of ourselves.
     
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  15. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    It is called "our faith" not because it originates with us but is given to us. It is called "saving faith" because it has the proper object that obtains justification (righteousenss/remission) and that is the Person and work of Jesus Christ in our place. So, it obtains a foreign or alien righteousness through imputation which does not originate in us or through us but originates in the Person and works of Christ.
     
  16. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Two things, first the translation he used was the NIV. Not hard to figure out, but if one is looking to be petty then we end up with your comment on it.

    Second, you failed to properly cite this article. You could very well have included a link as easy as you could have looked up which translation he used but did not. In intentionally refusing to include the link to his article you make arguments against a small portion of the article using passages he, in fact addresses as well, later on in his article. I find your handling of Dr. Flowers article and position devious and unfair. Since I was able to point out the translation he used for you let me also properly cite his article for you.

    Dr. Flowers article

    This way everyone can see his whole argument and not just what you cherry picked.
     
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  17. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    My comment was only that he did not indicate the translation and that translation does not reflect the Majority text which has no plural pronouns.

    The article had been sent to me without citation.

    I cited the foundation of his article that dealt directly with John 6:44-45. If the foundation is rotten so will be everything built upon it. You have cited the article.
     
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  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Thanks RM, discussion of the actual position enlightens, discussion of manufactured flaws not so much.
     
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  19. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    No your comment was snarky as it characterized it in a way that was far more than matter of fact.



    Nope, a portion of it was sent to you without proper citation apparently. I suggest next time you ask for it and make sure you have the whole story. In this case you did not and now you look foolish. I am actually surprised to see this from you.
     
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  20. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    "The proper question is why would God save any sinner at all. "

    That is a proper insult.

    Calvinist always shocked and surprised with God to be half a monster rather than the complete one they expect.

    It shows a lack of faith and a skewed view of expecting God to be no better than the worst of us.

    A retributive sense of justice is not a restorative sense of Justice. A God who has zero forgiveness and demands payment and suffering one way or another.

    Forgot to mention the part of your story where God pours out his wrath on Jesus. God drags his only son into the fire pours gasoline on him to satisfy his sadist sense of justice.
     
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