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Featured The plausibility of John 3:18

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JonC, Mar 24, 2019.

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  1. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Well then no wonder people think you are all over the place because you actually are. Flowing in and out of theories.

    Why don't you list a simple summary of your view. Keep it short and to the point.

    And again, we are not talking about age and credentials. It is irrelevant. You and I went to the same school, have the same degree, and no it was not completely online.
     
    #181 Reformed1689, Mar 25, 2019
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I understand. You simply do not know opposing theories so you believe them to be "flowing in and out of theories" rather than a view apart from them (between theories). Perhaps this is because what you hold is a reformed version of Roman Catholic dogma.

    My view is that the Atonement is more than a moral response to a moral problem. I believe sin is more pervasive than simply disobedience to God. Jesus taught that sin was also a power under which man was enslaved. I believe this to be true. Paul taught sin was penal, but more than this he taught that sin was a power under which man was enslaved. I believe he was correct on both accounts.

    Where we differ is that I do not believe Scripture is a buffet where we pick and choose what to believe. We can never deny one passage in our affirmation of another. Sin is penal. I've repeatedly said that. But it is also a power that has mastered mankind.

    That, in a snapshot, is my view which you have argued tooth and nail against. That and the fact that I believe those who are condemned are condemned because they do not believe in the only begotten Son of God.

    I take I was correct in estimating your maturity?
     
    #182 JonC, Mar 25, 2019
  3. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    We don't differ there actually.

    You do realize that I never said otherwise. But there was one post that you implied, whether you meant to or not, that it was never a moral transgression.

    And yes, I still argue against this. That is their ultimate condemnation, someone called it sentencing, but that is not the initial reason we are penalized. We are penalized for the ACT of sin. We see this in Genesis 1-3.
     
    #183 Reformed1689, Mar 25, 2019
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Obviously you have no interest in truth as you could not take the challenge I gave you nor could you give any reasonable response to the evidences placed before but just repeated the same error again.
     
    #184 The Biblicist, Mar 25, 2019
  5. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    What text are you thinking of here? Is it Romans 5:13-14?
     
    #185 Martin Marprelate, Mar 25, 2019
  6. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    So are those condemned condemned solely for not believing, of for their sins in general?
    I fear it is otherwise.
     
    #186 Martin Marprelate, Mar 25, 2019
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  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I look at it this way:

    Jesus said (as recorded by John):
    John 3:10-21
    10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?
    11 "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.
    12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
    13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
    14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
    15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
    16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
    17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
    18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
    20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
    21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

    If you fear it is otherwise, you need to take that up with God - not me.

    But since you did take it up with me I'll let Him know you'll be inquiring and perhaps demanding otherwise. :D

    (I joke, but you do realize that I did not expound on the passage....just stated it....right?)
     
    #187 JonC, Mar 25, 2019
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yep. You got me. I have no interest in truth. I just want to wallow here in a bed of lies. Congratulations on your discernment. :rolleyes:
     
    #188 JonC, Mar 25, 2019
  9. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Oh boy! Yes you do!
    Wow! What wonderful insight! It could have anything to do with the picture on the avatar, could it?
    Well at least he's holding down a position as a Pastor. How about you?
    :Roflmao:Roflmao:Roflmao
     
    #189 Martin Marprelate, Mar 25, 2019
  10. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for quoting a pile of Scripture, but I did know it's in the Bible. Now, how about answering my question?
    So are those condemned condemned solely for not believing, of for their sins in general?
     
    #190 Martin Marprelate, Mar 25, 2019
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  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Those who are condemned are condemed because they do not believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    We just have to "agree to disagree".
     
    #191 JonC, Mar 25, 2019
  12. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Why do they need to believe in the first place?
     
    #192 Reformed1689, Mar 25, 2019
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I don't know how accurate one's avatar may be. I tend to think yours is pretty accurate :Roflmao:Roflmao:Roflmao.
    That said I know many heretics who held down a position of pastor. One was here in the past and I am confident he was not even a believer. Pkus, I am not sure he is a pastor (some churches call anyone in the ministry "pastor"...I know one that has an "event pastor" who decorates the church).
     
    #193 JonC, Mar 25, 2019
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Jon, I was not responding to your post but to the post of 37818 at #170. How you got it I don't know. I presented evidence that his use of Ezekiel 18 was simply false. Were you quoting his post?

    I rechecked my post and in the heading it is 37818 that I responded to.
     
    #194 The Biblicist, Mar 25, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Because that is what the passage says.

    Your argument here is not with me, David.

    I think it is because we were purposed to do God's will and not ours. But I accept that those who believe are not condemned and those who don't are already condemned because they don't believe because that is what the Bible says.

    I do not understand why you cannot simply believe the passage.
     
    #195 JonC, Mar 25, 2019
  16. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    If you look at it under a microscope and ignore the rest of Scripture, yes.

    It's with your theology and biblical interpretation.

    Oh I believe the passage, and I believe you interpret it incorrectly. There is a reason we have to believe in Christ.

    Did Adam need to believe in Christ before the fall?
     
    #196 Reformed1689, Mar 25, 2019
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    When you run across Scripture, like this one, that stands in opposition to your theory, you can't simply ignore it for passages you can twist i to a mold.
     
    #197 JonC, Mar 25, 2019
  18. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not ignoring it. I affirm it. But you also dodged a question. Did Adam have to believe in Christ for eternal life before the fall?
     
    #198 Reformed1689, Mar 25, 2019
  19. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Pal, I don’t reject that the Christ is the only begotten of God. Your actions are quite unbecoming of someone who a moderator of a Christian site. To even make that statement is in bad taste, but that’s you.

    Here’s how this goes. Say I am born in a place where the gospel has never been proclaimed. A place where no bible has even been seen, handled, read. I can look at all I see there and know there is a god. However, all I see doesn’t tell me that God sent His Son to live, be crucified, rise again three days later and ascend to the Father. If I die in my sins, I was condemned, not because I rejected the Christ, but because I was born condemned/judged already in Adam.
     
    #199 SovereignGrace, Mar 25, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
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  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Of course, you are correct. when men deny biblical truth as taught, error follows. People who have no access to a bible still sin and die as condemned because they die in their sins as you have posted.
    They were not given a choice to believe in Jesus or not. They do not know Jesus exists, but they sin nevertheless as they have a sin nature and are spiritually dead.
     
    #200 Iconoclast, Mar 25, 2019
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