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Word of God

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Van, Mar 24, 2019.

  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    In common usage, when we hear the phrase, the Word of God, we think what is being referred to is God's written word, scriptures. However, a study of the phrase reveals something less general is in view.

    The phrase “word of God” appears 47 times in the NASB version of the Bible, 6 times in the Old Testament and 41 times in the New Testament. While our common usage for the phrase refers to the Bible in total, the actual biblical usage is more limited.

    It is used to refer to a revelation from God that is specific and true. So specific directions, such as “Thou shall not murder” are the word of God, but in addition the phrase is used for Jesus, He is the Word of God and His words are the Word of God. And finally, the gospel of Christ Jesus is many times called the Word of God.

    Jesus spoke of false teachers interpreting “the word of God” such that they made it to no effect.

    The word of God is credited for creation, but it is difficult to separate whether God speaking the Universe into existence is in view, or the second person of the Trinity actions in making everything that was made.

    In any event, when the phrase appears in scripture, we see that God’s revelation is in view and it is true. Hence two of the names used for Christ Jesus are Word of God and Truth.

    Old Testament references: 1 Samuel 9:27; 2 Samuel 16:23; 1 Kings 12:22; 1 Chronicles 17:3; Psalm 19:1; and Proverbs 30:5.

    Gospel and Acts references: Matthew 15:6; Mark 7:13; Luke 3:2, 5:1, 8:11, 8:21; 11:28; John 10:35: Acts 4:31, 6:2, 6:7, 8:14, 11:1, 13:5, 13:7, 13:46, 17:13, and 18:11.

    Paul’s references: Romans 9:6; 1 Corinthians 14:36; 2 Corinthians 2:17, 4:2; Ephesians 6:17; Philippians 1:14; Colossians 1:25; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Timothy 4:5, 2 Timothy 2:9, and Titus 2:5.

    Remaining references: Hebrews 4:12, 6:5, 11:3, 13:7; 1 Peter 1:23; 2 Peter 3:5; 1 John 2:14; Revelation 1:2, 1:9, 6:9, 19:13, and 20:4.

    In Romans 9:6 Paul uses the phrase to refer to the promises of God made to Israel. And then goes on to explain that God’s word has not failed. Thus a specific statement from God is in view that is true.

    Bottom line, when you see the phrase in scripture, do not assume the Bible is in view, rather consider the context and see if Jesus, or the gospel, or some specific statement from God is in view.
     
  2. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Who does that?
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Lots of us think of the bible as the word of God. Some of us (KJV only) think one translation only is the word of God. However, usually the usage in scripture does not have that generalization in view, but rather something more specific like the gospel of Christ or Christ Himself.
     
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The second Person is the sole agent of everything on the behalf of God as God, . . . John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:2-3.
     
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  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    That is not at issue. When God (the Father?) said "let there be light" was God the Father speaking the universe into existence, or did the Word of God (second person of the Trinity) take the action to bring the universe into existence.

    Which Person of the Trinity said Let there be light? Perhaps others do not find difficulty in answering that question, I did.
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    OK, you are not alone in that opinion. I believe the Son of God spoke the Sun to be that star that it is. (John 1:3) In any case our Earth was given its first light.
     
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yes, the phrase "word of God" appears elsewhere in scripture (including but not limited to Romans 10:17, Ephesians 6:17. Hebrews 6:5 and Hebrews 11:3.) But in these verses "Rhema and not Logos" is translated "word." A better choice would be for these verses to be translated as "saying of God" or "spoken by God."

    Matthew 15:6 CT has logos of God, but the MT has command of God.

    Therefore, here is the corrected list:

    Gospel and Acts references: Matthew 15:6, Mark 7:13; Luke 5:1, 8:11, 8:21; 11:28; John 10:35: Acts 4:31, 6:2, 6:7, 8:14, 11:1, 12:24, 13:5, 13:7, 13:44, 13:46, 17:13, 18:11 and 19:20.

    Paul’s references: Romans 9:6; 1 Corinthians 14:36; 2 Corinthians 2:17, 4:2; Philippians 1:14; Colossians 1:25; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Timothy 4:5, 2 Timothy 2:9, and Titus 2:5.

    Remaining references: Hebrews 4:12, 13:7; 1 Peter 1:23; 2 Peter 3:5; 1 John 2:14; Revelation 1:2, 1:9, 6:9, 19:13, and 20:4.
     
    #8 Van, Mar 26, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2019
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    In common usage, when we hear the phrase, the Word of God, we think what is being referred to is God's written word, scriptures. However, a study of the phrase reveals something less general is usually in view.

    In the Old Testament, the NASB translates "debar Elohiym" 4 times as "word of God." (1 Samuel 9:27, 2 Samuel 16:23, 1 Kings 12:22, and 1 Chronicles 17:3.) In the New Testament, the NASB translates "logos theos" as "word of God" 40 times.

    It is used to refer to a revelation from God that is specific and true. So specific directions, such as “Thou shall not murder” are the word of God, but in addition the phrase is used for Jesus, He is the Word of God and His words are the Word of God. And finally, the gospel of Christ Jesus is many times called the Word of God.

    Jesus spoke of false teachers interpreting “the word of God” such that they made it to no effect.

    The word of God is credited for creation, but it is difficult to separate whether God speaking the Universe into existence is in view, or the second person of the Trinity actions in making everything that was made.

    In any event, when the phrase appears in scripture, we see that God’s revelation is in view and it is true. Hence two of the names used for Christ Jesus are Word of God and Truth.

    Here are the 40 places (that I found) where logos theos is translated as word of God in the NASB:

    Gospel and Acts references: Matthew 15:6, Mark 7:13; Luke 5:1, 8:11, 8:21; 11:28; John 10:35: Acts 4:31, 6:2, 6:7, 8:14, 11:1, 12:24, 13:5, 13:7, 13:44, 13:46, 17:13, 18:11 and 19:20.

    Paul’s references: Romans 9:6; 1 Corinthians 14:36; 2 Corinthians 2:17, 4:2; Philippians 1:14; Colossians 1:25; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Timothy 4:5, 2 Timothy 2:9, and Titus 2:5.

    Remaining references: Hebrews 4:12, 13:7; 1 Peter 1:23; 2 Peter 3:5; 1 John 2:14; Revelation 1:2, 1:9, 6:9, 19:13, and 20:4.

    In Romans 9:6 Paul uses the phrase to refer to the promises of God made to Israel. And then goes on to explain that God’s word has not failed. Thus a specific statement from God is in view that is true.

    Bottom line, when you see the phrase in scripture, do not assume the Bible is in view, rather consider the context and see if Jesus, or the gospel, or some specific statement from God is in view.

    [The above is a corrected version of the Opening Post, which removes references to places where other Hebrew or Greek phrases were also translated as word of God. My bad.]
     
    #9 Van, Mar 27, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2019
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    One of the difficulties of searching for the intended meanings of words or phrases found in scripture, is that different Hebrew or Greek words are translated into the same English word or phrase. For example in the NASB, eight times that we find "word of God" the underlying Greek is not logos but rhema. So if another English word (say declaration or declarations) were used, the distinction intended would be transparent.

    Luke 3:2
    in the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the declaration of God came to John, the son of Zacharias, in the wilderness.

    John 3:34
    “For He whom God has sent speaks the declarations of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure.

    John 8:47
    “He who is of God hears the declarations of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”

    Romans10:17
    So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the declaration of Christ.

    Ephesians 6:17
    And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the declaration of God.

    Hebrews 6:5
    and have tasted the good declaration of God and the powers of the age to come,

    Hebrews 11:3
    By faith we understand that the declaration of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

    Revelation 17:17
    "For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the declarations of God will be fulfilled.
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    In Matthew 4:4 rhema does include logos on the whole.
     
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Sometimes the word "word" is used to translate logos, and at other times (Matthew 4:4) rhema. Thus not everywhere you find "word" in English translations is the underlying Greek logos. Why the translators did not use different English words for the different Greek words, is beyond me. The result lacks transparency.
     
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Where a translation uses the same English word for two different Greek words, and if that distinction is important to me, I go through may Bible and underline or mark in some way the less common redendering of the English word of one of the two Greek words, so I know which Greek word is in use at a glance. I have done this in the KJV for one of the two of the three words translated "hell." Also for one of the two words translated "world." Now I may just do it for the two main Greek words translated "word." Noting our English word logic comes from the Greek word Logos. And that Greek word is rendered "reason" in 1 Peter 3:15. And that rendering might work in a number of places.
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Spot on!! Putting a G (Gehenna) or an H (Hades) next to where hell appears is very helpful.

    The definition I like for logos is "that which accomplishes God's purpose." It may be a specific command, or the gospel message, or the Second Person of the Trinity.
     
  15. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I'm just wondering what the point of this is. Do you think rhema is somehow a lower-grade word than logos? Is a rhema of God less God-breathed or less binding on mankind than a logos? I think you will find it difficult to prove that from your examples above.
     
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  16. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    However, this does speak to the absolute necessity of going back to the Greek for interpretation as opposed to just relying on English translations.
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I'm just wondering what the point of you post is. Do you not understand the difference in meaning between logos and rhema? Rhema refers to a vocalization of God's communication, and refers to uttering, speaking, pronouncing the communication, rather than the goal or purpose of the communication (Logos).

    "Is a rhema of God less God-breathed or less binding on mankind than a logos? I think you will find it difficult to prove that from your examples above." This is your assertion, or an effort to put forth your assertion as if it were mine. Why not quote me, rather than make up an assertion. Discussing strawman arguments are really a waste of time.
     
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