1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Revelation 6:9-11

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Dayle, Apr 23, 2019.

  1. Dayle

    Dayle Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2019
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    5
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The majority view is that the resurrection of the Saints that Paul speaks about in 1 Thessalonians 2, 2 Thessalonians 4, and 1 Corinthians 15, takes place before the Anti-Christ come on the scene.
    Many believe it could happen at any moment.

    Revelation 6:9-11 is the opening of the fifth seal which speaks of souls under the altar asking when their death would be avenged. They are told they must wait until their fellow servants and brethren who would be killed is completed.

    So who are these souls and why were they not resurrected with the other Saints?
    When will they be resurrected?
     
  2. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,945
    Likes Received:
    1,661
    Faith:
    Baptist
    They aren't resurrected. Thay are the souls/spirits of those who have died prior to the resurrection.
     
  3. Dayle

    Dayle Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2019
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    5
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I am confused by your post.
    Could you explain?
     
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    15,891
    Likes Received:
    1,236
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I hold all who will die for Christ will be resurrected prior to the rapture 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. And the Jesus has only the two appearings in the schem of things per Hebrews 9:28. That Matthew 24:29 and the 6th seal Revelation 6:12 are one and the same event. And that the wrath of God in Revelation 6:17, Revelation 11:18, Revelation 16:19, and Revelation 19:15 refer to the same point in time.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Dayle

    Dayle Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2019
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    5
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So what do you call the "rapture" and when does it happen in relation to the resurrection?
     
  6. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,945
    Likes Received:
    1,661
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The resurrection will return our spirits to our physical bodies, which will be transformed into a glorified body such as the glorified body of our Lord Jesus (no, we don't become Gods, but the glorified body will follow the example of the resurrected body of Jesus).

    The "souls" of those under the altar are the spirits of those killed by persecution that are waiting for the glorification of Jesus through the Day of the Lord and the return to their resurrected bodies.
     
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    They are those who died in the first century tribulation.
     
  8. Dayle

    Dayle Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2019
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    5
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Still not clear---
    If the resurrection happens before the anti-Christ comes as most teach, why are these not resurrected also?
    Why are they not part of the first resurrection?
     
  9. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    262
    Faith:
    Baptist
    My explanation is that those under the alter haven't been resurrected because the rapture hasn't happen yet. John is in the spirit when he see's the vision he is talking about. He actually see's them under the throne. This part isn't prophecy it is fact. Not everything in revelations is prophecy. It is also about what he see's where he is, as well as what he is told. John is being told of things present and things to come.
    MB
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,945
    Likes Received:
    1,661
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I believe scripture teaches a post tribulation rapture.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. Dayle

    Dayle Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2019
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    5
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Seems we three are not in agreement with the majority of our breather.
     
  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    I am leaning to postmillenial teaching.

    I believe Hebrews and Revelation are given to the struggling persecuted Church. To let them know of our victorious Lord and King.
    It allows them to see Him ruling and Reigning from Heaven Rev4,5...Hebrews12..
    And with us All The days.mt28
     
  13. TurnTheTide1611

    TurnTheTide1611 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2019
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Baptist
    They were martyred after the partial pre-trib rapture. They will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4.


    They are part of the first resurrection, and will rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years, along with the saints that were raptured prior to the tribulation.
     
  14. Dayle

    Dayle Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2019
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    5
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "Partial pre-trib rapture"?
    Now that is a new one on me.

    Is there Scripture that you can show me that supports this?
     
  15. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    262
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I think He is speaking of the 144000 who stay and minister to the lost.
    MB
     
  16. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,362
    Likes Received:
    668
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The GREAT trib hasn't yet occurred. Proof? Matt. 24:29-30. Jesus will return immediately after the trib; He said so Himself in those verses.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Roby
    Many believe the return of mt. 24
    Was not the second coming, but rather a coming in judgment, as He promised those alive at that time...you know the verses that say there are some standing here who shall not see death until they see these things come.
    They would be pretty old if they were still waiting there now.
     
  18. TurnTheTide1611

    TurnTheTide1611 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2019
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The partial pre-trib rapture refers to the idea that not all believers are raptured, but only the ones that are watching and waiting for the Lord's return, that are walking with God, seeking the kingdom, etc. Basically, if you are living in good fellowship with God in terms of your practical walk with Christ, you will be accounted worthy to be part of the pre-trib rapture.

    Three passages to support this would be:

    Luke 21:34-36
    And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    You will only escape all these things (i.e. the tribulation just mentioned earlier in he chapter) if you are accounted worthy.

    (And to try to head off the objection before someone makes it: This view does not entail a works based salvation - but it is a faith and works based pre-trib rapture.)

    2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    To "let" means to hinder. Salty Christians who are letting their light shine, and occupying till our Lord comes, are the ones that get taken out of the way before the antichrist is revealed.

    Universal pretribbers usually say this is the Holy Spirit being taken from the earth, but that doesn't make any sense to me. Do the 144,000 witnesses not have the Holy Spirit?

    I have never heard a mid or post tribber have any explanation for who or what is taken out of the way.

    Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
    Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

    Enoch walked with God and he pleased God. So he was translated before the flood came. He is a type of the partial pre-trib rapture. Universal pre-tribbers ignore the fact that Enoch wasn't just a believer, but one that pleased God. (Or in typical Calvinist/Arminian fashion (two-sides of the same coin really) they assume that all "real" believers by definition are pleasing and walking with God.) I have never heard the mid/post tribbers have any explanation as to why Enoch was translated.
     
  19. Dayle

    Dayle Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2019
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    5
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Strange , very strange---------
    I believe you have been lead astray.

    If what you say is true, there will be so few taken that no one will notice.
     
  20. TurnTheTide1611

    TurnTheTide1611 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2019
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Well, hopefully you or someone else can explain the scriptures provided, so if I am astray I can get back on the right path.

    And yes there probably will be relatively few taken in the pre-trib rapture, regardless of the planes crashing and absolute pandemonium as portrayed in universal pre-trib books and movies. But there might be more taken than we think:

    1 Kings 19:14,18 And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away... 18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.
     
Loading...