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Were the New Testament writers flat-earthers?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by ChurchofChristguy, Apr 28, 2019.

  1. ChurchofChristguy

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    So the devil and Jesus were on a mountain top sufficient to see all of the world's kingdoms, and "the four corners of the earth" is spoken of in Revelation. Of course, the earth has no corners, and no mountain top would be sufficiently high to see 'round the world.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    What Bible translation uses the term "four corners of the Earth?"

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
     
  3. ChurchofChristguy

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    KJ, NIV, and most others
     
  4. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    You did not quote Matthew 4:8, so I will do so for you here:

    Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory;

    βασιλείας τοῦ κόσμου = kingdoms of the world. There is no mention of the four corners of the earth in this passage, so I have no idea why you inferred there is.

    As for the matter of the four corners of the earth, that is found in Revelation 7:1, again a passage you did not quote.

    Revelation 7:1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.

    For any serious Bible student, it is obvious John is writing metaphorically. He not only writes "four corners of the earth" but also the "four winds of the earth". The meaning is not difficult to grasp. John is writing about the totality of the earth, not literal corners.
     
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  5. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    OK, I was looking for "four corners of the Earth" in the account of Jesus' temptation. Not there but it is there in Revelation. Obviously, "four corners of the Earth" is a figure of speech.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
     
  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    My thought is you misunderstand the genre of language being employed. You should do s better study.
     
  7. ChurchofChristguy

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    I was hoping for some dialogue here. Care to share your study?
     
  8. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    That is actually taking liberty with the text, since the passage does not say that from the mountaintop, it was "sufficient to see all the world's kingdoms".

    What the passage does say is:

    Mat_4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

    Luk_4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

    Notice, that the devil took Jesus up into an exceeding high mountain, and "sheweth" Jesus "all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them", even "in a moment of time". Several things then:

    [1] the devil "sheweth", which means the devil presented the kingdoms (all of them) through a medium of vision
    [2] it was "in a moment of time", which means a brief panoramic view took place
    [3] there is no mountain high enough, even on a so-called flat earth model to "see" "all the kingdoms of the earth" at once, and their "glory", for even the so-called flat earth believers, understand about optics, field of view, haze, density of atmosphere etc, and so, even in their so-called flat earth model, it would not be possible even with direct line of sight, upon the highest place upon the so-called flat earth model.

    See the word similarly used in Acts 7:3, in which God showed Abraham the promised land through vision (Genesis 15:12-13; John 8:56). See also Revelation 17:1, 21:9, 22:6, for another angel "shew[ing]" another person events and places in vision, or panoramic, even symbolic view. For instance, we use television, internet, etc to view many places all at once, and the devil, and heavenly angels are more sophisticated than we, for mankind was made just below the angels.

    The devil is able to give not only dreams (Job 4:13), but also visions (Ezekiel 13:16).

    I must assume you mean to be referring to:

    Rev_7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

    The book of Revelation is given in symbol, primarily, and uses many types even from the old testament texts.

    If you study the Bible more closely, on the term "corners" it is also used for the human head:

    Lev_19:27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

    The human head is not flat, but roundish.

    Moreover, the phrase "four corners" is directly associated with the altar of burnt offering/sacrifice/slaughter, of which the earth represents, since it is the place in which Christ Jesus died. It also has to do with the simply four cardinal directions, North, South, East and West, which exists upon a spheroid earth.

    The number "four" is also symbolic of the 'universal of both place and time', hence the 4th commandment, dealing with all things created and the time in which it was created. Many examples could be given in scripture to substantiate this, but only as needful. One may begin in Genesis 2:10, even and see the 4 great rivers flowing from out of Eden, which watered all the earth. There are four metals in the statue of Daniel 2, Gold, Silver, Brass, Iron, representing the 4 kingdoms from Babylon unto the end (Roman).

    You are mistaken, since the 'earth', aka the "dry land" (Genesis 1:9-10), has many 'corners', even 'ends', many 'boundaries', ect.

    Job_28:24 For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven;

    Exo_13:20 And they took their journey from Succoth, and encamped in Etham, in the edge of the wilderness.

    Be careful then of the language used, in its context, locally, and globally, otherwise, you might make very grave mistakes, for read this passage over-literal, and once comes to a funny ideology:

    Eph_2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

    Jesus is literally a stone block? or is it using a special type of language to get the point across that everything begins with Jesus?

    Joh_1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    Jesus is literally a fuzzy woolly sheep? or is it using language referring to something else that we may obtain the idea that Jesus is the sacrifice required of the true sanctuary service?

    Even still, on a so-called flat earth model, the land itself does not have 4 corners, but has four ice walls, which are not earth, and in other so-called flat earth models, there are no corners at all, since they say that there is an infinite beyond the ice wall (thus no corners to speak of. Depends on the so-called model one is dealing with, for none of them agree, which is another sign it is not from God, for it breeds confusion, and unnecessary division.

    Agreed, not with normal sight, and not even on a so-called flat earth model either. Atmosphereic conditions, air pressure, particulates, lighting conditions, etc.

    I pray you do not want my thoughts, but what God has said in His word. A plain thus saith the Lord.
     
  9. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    If I may also make a suggestion to the OP:

    Do not make a logical error either (just in case for future):

    Logical error:

    That N.A.S.A. * is mostly bogus propaganda (on almost all fronts, some things are true, otherwise the devil wouldn't be able to pull off so great a deception if there weren't some truth bound up in it. see Genesis 3 for example) does not equate to giving credibility to the other error of the so-called flat earth models.

    The two things, the errors of NASA (Space Ex, etc) is one thing, and the so-called flat earth models another.

    Simply because one may be able to prove with much evidence the chicanery of NASA (false rovers appearing to be on lunar surface or martian soil, etc), does not auto-validate the second error as true. For instance, "to demonstrate that mankind never set a single human foot on the lunar surface" (and all the other things), does not give credence to 'Hey that makes the earth flat' (whatever model you choose among the several). Neither does showing composite earth stills from cis-lunar or even just above earth atmosphere orbit (satellites are a real thing, and anyone can view them with a telescope and right GPS), etc.

    *
    N.A.S.A. - Not Always Scientifically Accurate
    N.A.S.A. - Never A Straight Answer
    N.A.S.A. - Numerous Anomalies Scams Abound
    N.A.S.A. - National Academy of Space Actors
    N.A.S.A. - Not Anything, Simply Aether,
    N.A.S.A. - Neither Aerospace, Sadly, Astro-NOTS!
    N.A.S.A. - Never Accept the Serpents Assertions.


    In short:

    See 1 Tim. 6:7, which seems to draw upon Job 1:21 & Ecclesiastes 5:15.

    Most of what you ‘see’ and ‘hear’ related to ‘space exploration’ is propagandistic, self-serving, and ultimately fraud (though certain truths are utilized), especially that ‘Apollo’ and ‘mars’ business. Humans and satan (see 1 Timothy 6:7; Revelation 12:8-13; Romans 5:6 [combined with Revelation 1210]; 2 Corinthians 4:4 ('god of this world only', and only temporary, as a usurper) are confined to this local earth, though having access to high altitudes.

    The ‘space program’ is actually another system based upon the ‘tower of babel’ reasoning/thought, being another way (a siege-tower of Babel) up into Heaven (to spread sin, as satan's original plan desires) other than The Way (John 14:6), another ladder other than the Jacob’s Ladder - Jesus Christ. The only way into Heaven now is by vision, or by John 14:1-3.

    Some names I may recommend to you (most of which is freely available online to read or watch, consider scientifically). Bill Kaysing. James Collier (Was it only a paper moon); Bart Sibrel (Astronauts Gone Wild); Ralph Rene (Nasa Mooned America), Marcus Allen. David Percy (What happened on the Moon, Analysis; Hall of Mirrors), Mary Bennett. Jim Fetzer. Jarrah White (Moon Faker, Mars Faker (youtube)), Richard Hall, and in this present list, last but not least, N.A.S.A. itself, and its own material, still available and that which has since been removed, deleted, redacted, etc.

    Do I desire to really speak on the subject of NASA here? No, I was just heading off, a logical fallacy which usually enters in, but if we stay with scripture, it will be better for all.
     
  10. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Another thing, based solely on the OP title: "Were the New Testament writers flat-earthers?"

    The answer could be simply answered by asking what the old Testament writers taught, for the New Testament writers wrote under the same inspiration, the Holy Ghost/Spirit, and would have to agree with all that went before (Gen. to Mal.) themselves (John, Peter, Paul, James, etc), and a simple study of the OT, shows the earth to be spheroid, ie 'round'. More detail as needed.
     
  11. ChurchofChristguy

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    Guys, thanks for all of the "you need to study your Bible more", and concern about my logical error, etc.

    Please note in my OP, I was only asking a question "were the NT writers flat earthers"? I never said I actually thought they were, nor do I think it is some kind of grave error even if I did.

    This is a discussion forum. I like to read well-founded opinions. I don't need rebuking. :D

    There are a lot of thoughtful posts here. If we can steer clear of the assumptions it will be really enjoyable!
     
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  12. ChurchofChristguy

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    I pray that you come to the understanding that this is a discussion forum.
     
  13. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    Oh no, I see we have another denier of truth here. What's next, a denial of the dinosaurs too?
     
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  14. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, where we discuss the Bible.
     
  15. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    The two are not equal, nor equative. Dragons (aka 'dino-saurs') exist (present tense) just fine.
     
  16. ChurchofChristguy

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    Indeed X 2.
     
  17. ChurchofChristguy

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    I think he may be referring to those big dog dinos. T-Rex and friends.
     
  18. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Some of the biggies are still around. Numerous eye witnesses. Besides t-rex wasn't all that big (a vague and subjective word, only comparable with specific given contrast of set).

    You might like this:

     
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