Premillennialism, Amillennialism, and Post-?

You are welcome to your opinion.
But everytime someone has a poll, 60-80% of the
people are pretrib.
Everytime someone has a debate, 60-80% are
a-mills.

My Pastor says when he was a SouthWestern
Theological Seminiary in Fort Worth (mid
1960s) every professor there was a-mill.
This was at a time when 60% of the SBC pastors
ignored eschatology, 30% were pretrbib/pre-mill,
and 10% where something else.

While you have Soul Liberty and can think as
you want, most trends are toward (in the pew)
following pretrib rapture theory like
LaHaye teaches (and became a millionare
off of) But on BB there is a noisy
(mostly non-Baptist) a-mill minority ONLY.

 

Why should I take it up with Him? You are the one who is confusing and trying to twist his words into something He did not say. </font>[/QUOTE]The messages were given to me by the Holy Spirt.
Deal with it.

Pleae don't be like many who reject God's
message cause they don't like the person
GOD chose to deliver the message:
racism, sexism, anti-facial harists, etc -
all an abomination before God.

BTW, as far as debating goes. People who only
attack the I, II, and III parts of an
outline don't win near as many as do people who
have arguments against the 1,2, and 3 stuff
and the A,B, and C stuff and the a, b, and c
minor points. In fact, one finds that
attacking the messenger is WAY PAST a good way
to win a debate. So attacking the messenger
will be noted by the majority of the readers and cause the debater who uses it to look foolish.
But I don't moderate here, so I can't help folks
from making fools of them selves.

 

I am not attacking you, I am saying you don't make any sense, if you are hard to understand or your point is not clear then it is mighty hard to respond, in other words please clarify.

You have posted these giant lists with no clear point to them or explanation of what you are doing with the lists.

 

The B-Board is pretty limited as far as polling goes. Outside of baptist and pentacostal circles most people wouldn't even know what a premill is.

BTW going through the news while reading Matthew 24 has been enough to prove that we are living in the endtimes and that the tribulation is now and not some future event.

 

[/QUOTE]You are welcome to your opinion.
But everytime someone has a poll, 60-80% of the
people are pretrib.
Everytime someone has a debate, 60-80% are
a-mills.
[/QUOTE]

Theres a very good reason for that. In a poll you only post your opinion. In a debate you must back up that opinion with scripture.

In order for someone to try and prove a pre trib rapture you must go directly against the WORD of God.

1- The LAST TRUMPET isnt really the LAST TRUMPET even though the scriptures say it is.
2-The DAY OF THE LORD is part of the tribulation period even though the scriptures say its not.
3- You must invent many resurrections in order for the rapture to occur.
4- "Death is swallowed up in victory" more than once, although the scriptures say otherwise
5- You must believe God cannot protect his people here on earth, although you will find many scriptures that say HE WILL.
6- The "four winds" must blow more than once
7- You must believe that you will find nothing of the rapture spoken by the prophets in the old testament.

AMOS 3 [6] Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?[7] Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

There are many more hoops the rapturist must jump through but... im done

 

OH? We are in the tribulation?

Let's see...

Revelation 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

I have not seen a third part of the trees burned up, nor have I seen all the grass burned up.

 

Why don't you ask the people in Texas what it is like to see the world go up into flames or the people in California. It is happening if only you open your eyes.

 

still don't see all the grass. And Texas and California are not a third of the trees either.

 

Feel free to turn a blind eye but it is happening. If you were expecting something grand and spectacular then I guess you will be as disappointed as 1 century Jewish people were with the heir of David, because Rev 8 is largely describing natural disasters.

 

Can't help but turn a blind eye, I am blind.

Where is the hail and fire mingled with blood that came from heaven, Chemnitz? we see fire, it has not burned the third of the trees, nor all the grass. I hear of the fires in those states, but to my knowledge, there was no report that that fire fell from the sky, nor that blood was seen falling.

 

UUall: //Theres a very good reason for that. In a poll you only
post your opinion. In a debate you must back up that opinion with scripture.//

I rather think that most people think their HOPE
in the pretribualation rapture is a NON-NEGOCIATABLE
and NON-DEBATABLE. I know mine is.
Caveat: Every time I say this heartfelt truth somebody says:
"You are supposted to have your HOPE in Jesus". Actually, that
is non-scriputral.

1Co 13:13 (Geneva Bible, 1587):
And nowe abideth faith, hope and loue, euen these three:
but the chiefest of these is loue.

'Faith' and 'Hope' are two different things. Otherwise Paul
would not have listed the lessor thing twice and the greater
thing once.

Heb 11:1 (Geneva Bible, 1587):
Now faith is the grounds of things, which are hoped for,
and the euidence of things which are not seene.

And this shows the difference. Faith is Hope that is GROUNDED

So when I say my Faith is in Jesus who already saved my Soul;
and that I Hope Jesus will come come get me in the pretribulation
rapture - I'm exactly RIGHT ON.
I know that it might be God's will (permissive) that I die
before the pretribulation rapture. If so, I know by Faith that
I shall be resurrected IMMEDIATELY prior to the pretribulation rapture.

 

Well Ed
Should you be one of the gentiles who do stick around till the day of affliction (that day takes place after the tribulation according to scripture)....

Jeremiah 16:19
O Lord, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

2 Thes. 2:2-5
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. [5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Be careful and believe the scriptures.

 

UUall: //Should you be one of the gentiles who do stick around till the day of affliction (that day takes place after the tribulation according to scripture)....//

According to which scripture, scriptures, or set of scriptures?
the 'day of affliction' is the Tribulation Period.

Strange that you end your quote at Jeremiah 16:19 and don't
include Jer 16:20 which is really instructive:


Jer 16:19-20 (KJV1611 Edition):
O Lord, my strength and my fortresse, and my refuge
in the day of affliction; the Gentiles shall come vnto thee
from the ends of the earth, and shall say;
Surely our fathers haue inherited lyes, vanitie,
and things wherein there is no profit.
20 Shall a man make Gods vnto himselfe, and they are no Gods?

Jer 16:19-20 (KJV1769 Edition):
O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge
in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee
from the ends of the earth, and shall say,
Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity,
and things wherein there is no profit.
20 Shall a man make gods unto himself, and they are no gods?

H6869
צרה
tsârâh
tsaw-raw'
Feminine of H6862; tightness (that is,
figuratively trouble); transitively
a female rival: - adversary, adversity,
affliction, anguish, distress,
tribulation, trouble.


doubtless 'afliction' here is the 'tribulation
period', if accurately translated.

Strange that you quote 2 THess 2:2-5 the
proof text for the pretrubulation rapture/resurrection of the
elect saints of the Church Age (AKA: age of Gentiles, time
of the Gentiles, Age of Grace, etc).

Even stranger, you quote 2 Thess 2:2-5 and
omit clarifying scriptures:

2Th 2:1 (KJV1611 Edition):
Now wee beseech you, brethren, by the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ,
and by our gathering together vnto him,

WHich clearly delineates two comings of Jesus:
1. our gathering together of the saints
2. the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ

2Th 2:15 (KJV1611 Edition):
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions
which yee haue beene taught, whether by word or our Epistle.

Surveys i've conducted at BB indicate that some 80% of the
current a-mills and post-trib pre-mills have SWITCHED
from the traditions of earlier generations of Baptist
and kindred church saints. Why do people hold to the
Salvation traditions and think it cool to swith eschatologies?

 

Yeah Ed
Its very instructive. But i didnt really want to open up that can of worms. Do you? You come across as one who would have one of these gods (graven images) hanging around your neck. My God hates those things.

 

Sorry Ed, wrong again. Most recent poll ---

Historic pre-mill --- 19%
Dispy pre-mill --- 30%
Amill --- 30%
NA --- 22%

 

Ed Edwards: //Surveys i've conducted at BB indicate that some 80% of the
current a-mills and post-trib pre-mills have SWITCHED
from the traditions of earlier generations of Baptist
and kindred church saints. Why do people hold to the
Salvation traditions and think it cool to swith eschatologies? //

FriendofSpurgeon: //Sorry Ed, wrong again. Most recent poll ---

Historic pre-mill --- 19%
Dispy pre-mill --- 30%
Amill --- 30%
NA --- 22% //

Our data is NOT in conflict.
BTW, you can't just slop data around and impress
90% of the population of this board.

Chemnitz: //I am not attacking you, I am saying you don't make any sense,
if you are hard to understand or your point is not clear then
it is mighty hard to respond, in other words please clarify.

You have posted these giant lists with no clear point to them
or explanation of what you are doing with the lists.//

Interesting put down. One of the lists i've been working on
for 15 years bouncing it against other people and perfecting it.
My first who?/what?/where?/when?/why? lists didn't have scirptures,
the ones today do. Shurely you recogzine the new hound's five questions?

I developed these lists while totally emersed in the study of
the scriptures. Almost 1/3 of the New Testament is such prophetic
documents. And a New Testament sized part of the Old Testament is
about the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom. Sorry, but I DISBELIEVE that
your problem is 'I don't make any sense' I discern you are a trouble
maker.

Again, I've been discusing Eschatological theories Since July 1984
on the Bulletin Boards (they were called Posting Boards then) alone.
I was NOT unaware of Eschatological theories before having been saved
in 1952 by a traving pre-trib Baptist Evangelist whose name i've long
forgot. He seemed woried about the Russian Cargo Aircraft (now they
have the largest production model Cargo Carrier in the world) carying
horses around and horsemen. But anyway, I digress.

Chemnitz: //BTW going through the news while reading Matthew 24
has been enough to prove that we are living in the endtimes
and that the tribulation is now and not some future event.//

I have an analysis of Matthew 24. It clearly shows that
Matthew 24:4-15 is a description of signs that show the
TiIme of the Gentiles (Gentile Age, AGe of Grace, Church Age, whatever
one calles it, mostly NOW) is continuing. All the signs of
Matthew 24:4-15 have been, are now, and will continue to be until
the 'endtimes' shows up. We are nearer the signless pretribualtion
rapture of the Gentile Age born-again, mostly gentile, elect saints Church
now then then because THIS IS THE LATEST IT HAS EVER BEEN.

I have a writing (12 years old anyway) about five different
TRIBULTATIONS and what they mean. MOstly your statement implies
that you don't realise the difference between 't'ribulation, a wreched
human condition and "T"ribulation Period, a period of time.
Surely most everybody can see the difference btween a time and
a condion?

Again, the writing takes the five questions: WHO?, WHAT?, WHY?
HOW? WHEN? and answers each of them. As usual, these answers are
NOT all this clear in the Bible so some combining of scriputres has
been done. And as you can see, I know enough about what is going to
happen (Biblicly speaking) that I can write out of my head without
a lot of note consulting. THis is NOT the only long post I'm writing
today. In fact, if I were parinoid, I'd think the Lead Devil was
after me, there being so many BB eschalogical threads open both
in the Other Religions, Theology and General Baptist Forums
(not to mention some that might well be hiding from me).

Thank you Brother UUall for your full frontal attack against
the pretribulation rapture/resurrection of the saints/elect.
It tells a lot more about the anti-pretrib position then about
the pretrib position. In fact, it seems strange that in a topic
about any eschatological topic i've ever seen in BB (Baptist Board)
bb (bulletin board) that it always turns into a pretrib v. anti-pretrib.
We have gone years at a time without any position othe then
the pretrib rapture being explained. Who will 'win' a debate like that?
People notice that it is the Truth that gets attacked frequently
when folks GANG UP.

Well, anyway, we have lots of answers from
(again, we cannot go through all the prophetic scriptures
to explain each answer and minister to our wifes and family.)

UUall //1- The LAST TRUMPET isnt really the LAST TRUMPET even
though the scriptures say it is.

This is really an inditment of the anti-pretrib's poor skill in debating.
Many fools equate the 'last trumpet' of 2 Corinthians 15:50-something
with the 7th Trumpet of Revelation. Revelation never calls the
7th Trumpet THE LAST TRUMPET. So this is an assumption (AKA: guess)
if if logically leads to dead ends or contradictions with the rest
of the Bible it should be abandoned as A BAD ASSUMPTION/GUESS.
In fact, what is being spoken of in 2 Cor 15:50+whatever is
THE LAST TRUMPET OF THE GENTILE AGE.

BTW, Talking to some Jewish friends who celebrate the actual
FEAST OF TRUMPETS in their Synagogue each year - three trumpets
are sounded:
1. the First Trumpet
2. the Last Trumpet
3. the Ggreat Ttrumpet

AIn't that a hoot the last trumpet is the Great Trumpet
the last trumpet is not the Last Trumpet.


UUall //2-The DAY OF THE LORD is part of the tribulation period even though
the scriptures say its not.

Strange, my search engine fails to find "the DAY OF THE LORD
is NOT part of the Tribulation Period".
Also, I teach three different DAY OF THE LORDs as found in the scriputre.
Reminds me of a joke:
I have three coins that add up to 55-cents and one of them is not a quarter.
What are the three coints. Answer - a quarter, another quarter,
the one coin not a quarter is a nickle.
Yes, two of the DAY OF THE LORDs are NOT the Tribulation Period, but
the one one is.

UUall //3- You must invent many resurrections in order for the rapture to occur.

I 'invenet'ed many resurrections i read about in the Scripture.
My list of 5 resurrecitons clearly delineates the DIFFERNCES from
the scriptures between the five resurrections that I visit.
Strange that the anti-pretribs are too lazy to go into the whole
document phrase by phrase showing it wrong - maybe they are smarter
than I give them credit for being?

UUall //4- "Death is swallowed up in victory" more than once, although
the scriptures say otherwise

But on the other hand, pretribs don't LIMIT God's resurrective power
like some anti-pretribs do. Say, isn't their a stigma to being


UUall //5- You must believe God cannot protect his people here on earth
although you will find many scriptures that say HE WILL.

Chapter 12 of Revelation shows how God will personally protect the
Jewish/Israeli citizens of Judah in the last half of the Tribulation Period
(great Tribulation Period. Yet saved mostly gentile Christian elect
church saints are not mentioned ON THE EARTH in Revelation after
Revelatin 4:1 until the glorious return of Jesus in Chapter 19.

UUall //6- The "four winds" must blow more than once

I live in Oklahoma, The for winds blow most every day.
Remember our state song says WHen the wind comes
sweeping down the PLANES.

UUall //7- You must believe that you will find nothing of the rapture
spoken by the prophets in the old testament.

I was a pre-trib for 40 years people telling me "If the pretribualtion
rapture is what God is going to do, why didn't he tell John (as in
the book of Revelation) ? Then I found the pretribualtion rapture
in Revelation 4:1 BY TYPE (people who don't know what BY TYPE means
in a sentence like this can be considered wise by keeping their fingers off
the keyboard).

I was a pre-trib for 50 years people telling me "If the pretribualtion
rapture is what God is going to do, why didn't Jesus say anything about it?
I found it in Matthew 24:31 (and a parallel verse in Mark 13)
and in Luke 21:36. Well, more the Holy Spirit showed me by of all
things a preacher who LISTENED to his English professors (he was
an English Major in his bachelor's degree before Seminary).
Strange how understanding a LITERARY DEVICE helps one understand
prophecy: find out about the POLYSENDETON 'and' in English and
the Polysendeton 'Kai" in Greek.

 

You sure are defensive. I am not trying to put you down so stop trying to act persecuted, it doesn't suit you. My guess, you still need to work on it because honestly, I did not see what your point was with the lists.

It would seem to make sense that the condition of tribulation would happen during the time of tribulation.

A study of contemporary religion will also illustrate how verses 15-29 are occuring at this time.

A muslim mosque stands on the temple mount, the pope stands in a cathedral, men claiming they are Christ, and false prophets on TV are performing great signs leading people astray.

60% of all statistics are made up, everybody knows that

 

Whoa Ed, not slopping data around here. No need for name calling.

And yes, the data is in conflict. What you stated was incorrect compared to the most recent poll.

You stated that 60%-80% of this board is pre-mil. The latest poll done earlier this year showed that 30% was dispy pre-mil and that 19% was historic pre-mil. (Personally, I find a big difference between the two, though both are pre-mil.) Even if you add these two up, it's only 49%.

Sorry, that's a sizeable difference compared to what you said.

 

Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Ask any 3rd grader to read the above scripture.

Then test them. Will the elect be gathered before the tribulation or after? I bet they would all give the correct answer. Whats your answer Ed?

 

I'm a baptist and always considered figuring out the sequence of events of the end times to be of little value.