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A Simple Question With Implications.

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by JarodAb, May 26, 2019.

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  1. JarodAb

    JarodAb New Member

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    Since the proud and elected Baptists in here chose to be afraid to allow nonBaptists to post discussion within the Baptist only sub forums, this spot will serve.

    Here is the question for them which even the most seasoned and confident Bible thumper who claims to know God cannot accurately answer.

    If God did indeed have the power and ability to elect and appoint those who will be called to Righteousness and who will inherit The Kingdom, why then did He create as well the vast hoards who will be dammed? In light of this apparent Omnipotence and Sovereign Rule, what then is the purpose or function of The Damned?

    Do your best to refrain from talking in circles and caveated uncertainty. Remember, Apostle James, theorized to be The Original Baptist, stated in 1:7 a guarantee of God's Bounteous Wisdom upon request for spiritual matters.

    As well, recall the many times you have heard a babbling professional church talker proclaim how crucial it is "We Know Who We Are In Christ."
     
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  2. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    OK Jarod I'll play the devil's advocate:

    Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
     
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  3. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Yea, God made the persons, who chose to be wicked inspite of God's mercies and longsuffering towards them (as King Saul, Judas, etc). It is not saying that God "made them wicked", which would make God wicked and the author of sin.
     
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  4. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    You are using human reasoning which doesn't always apply to how God thinks and/or behaves.

    Isaiah 55
    8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
    9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
     
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  5. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    I know, right?

    Well, the question is answerable from the Bible, just not from the so-called Calvinistically defined 'pre-destiners', 'electors', etc, who all abuse those words and 'wrest' them to their own destruction as Peter warned them from doing, but they choose to do it anyway (but in their mindset, they cannot but do it since they were 'elected' to think stupidly, using their incoherent position). Then they turn around and mock those who do not agree with them, denying their very own position, in that even they follow through with what they actually believe and teach, then why argue with someone who is made that way by God to say what they say? Asinine. Let them blather on, that men may know them mad. They self-define who is saved and lost, and make themselves the standard of criteria.

    God appointed and elected only 'one'. His Son, Jesus Christ.

    Isa_42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

    Mat 12:15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;
    Mat 12:16 And charged them that they should not make him known:
    Mat 12:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
    Mat 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

    Now, "whosoever will" may come and take of what God offers in His Son, and they become 'elect' in Him, and no other way. God chose His Son, and allows as many who "will" to choose His Son, even "freely". Anyone who refuses the Son, refused the Father, and chose themselves outside of the 'elect'.

    Does God foreknow who will so choose to be in Christ. Absolutely. Does that negate the choice of anyone? Absolutely not.

    1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

    1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

    Notice the "knowledge" part.

    Will billions be lost? Absolutely yes. Did God make them just so they could experience the wrath of God and the lake of fire? Absolutely not. The fire was never meant for mankind, not a single person thereof:

    Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire*, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    All of mankind could have boarded the 'ark' of Genesis 3:15, Jesus Christ. But only a handful, compared to the billions will choose to board.

    God is Omnipotent:

    Mat_28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

    God is Sovereign:

    Job_9:12 Behold, he taketh away, who can hinder him? who will say unto him, What doest thou?

    Yet the answer is found in Romans 9:

    Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

    Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

    God was longsuffering to those whom He knew who resist his mercies and grace, and sleight His offer in His Son, and therefore, demonstrates even through them, His perfect character of Love, Mercy & Justice.

    God offered the choice of His Son to all.

    Only those who take the unscriptural approach, as noted above, and wrest the scriptures will talk in circles, because their foundation was themselves.

    Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

    Jas 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

    Jas 1:7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

    For whatsoever is not of faith is sin, and sin is the transgression of the Law, and the wages of sin is the second death.

    So, I agree with James. Ask God, in Faith. God explains His own words.

    A person can know that they are in Christ, but there are some who are deceived, because they have a false Christ, based upon themselves. They have made themselves the judge.
     
    #5 Alofa Atu, May 26, 2019
    Last edited: May 26, 2019
  6. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    That you even say that... 'devils advocate', says much. The devil doesn't need an 'advocate', so why step in to speak for him and his position? What are you, the medium, the serpent, used to speak? That position is already taken by this position:

    [​IMG]
     
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  7. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Why then are you doing the same?
     
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  8. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    You believe in the so-called calvinistic 'pre-destination' and 'elect'? Yes? If so, follow the conclusion of that logic to answer your own question and what does your theology say in answer to it?

    If you truly believed I was doing such a thing, then the only answer your theology can give is... God made me do it. I have no choice in the matter. Beep-beep-Zort-whirlygig-zonk-beep (robot you see). and therefore it was foolish to even ask "Why".
     
  9. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    First You must have limited understanding of "devil's advocate" or you would not have answered in the manner you did.
    Secondly you were critical that I used the term in reference to my challenge to the o/p.

    Then you felt no qualm about creating an image of the false prophet, the image of beast and then broadcasting them globally over the internet.

    What are you? Who are you to create two forbidden images and then broadcast them over the global Ethernet providing them for their worshipers all over the world?

    BTW I am neither Calvin or Arminius devotee.
     
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  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Hmm. . . . Ephesians 1:3-4, ". . . Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: . . ."

    John 17:24, ". . . whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. . . ."
     
  11. JarodAb

    JarodAb New Member

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    Excellent response with The Word of God.

    Let us praise God for His good pleasure in making innumerable humans who are hopelessly damned. His Love is thereby shown and characterized.
     
  12. JarodAb

    JarodAb New Member

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    Yes, God did make them wicked. He made them to have an appointment for damnation.
     
  13. JarodAb

    JarodAb New Member

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    Okay.

    Step right up here, and give God's explanation of why He created the inumerable hoards of humans destined through Him to be damned.
     
  14. JarodAb

    JarodAb New Member

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    Did you speak a lie when you stated "God appointed and elected only one, His Son Jesus Christ?"

    Did you lie, or not?
     
  15. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Thanks Jarod.

    Some brotherly advice
    No one is hopelessly damned but those who refuse His mercy (whom He sees from eternity past) He has prepared a place for them - eternally separated from Him which in reality is what they want, For God to just go away and leave them alone forever.

    So you should use care with what you say... God has mercy upon whom He will Romans 9:15 - If anyone does not want His mercy He accommodates them. Yes He separates those of us who love Him from those who hate Him. What would anyone expect else wise?

    So...
    Ecclesiastes 10:20 Do not revile the king even in your thoughts, or curse the rich in your bedroom, because a bird of the air may carry your words, and a bird on the wing may report what you say.
     
  16. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Just... 'wow'. You have the same position on God as Mohammad did for 'allah' of the qur'an. Don't believe me? I can cite you the specific surahs. Just let me know when you want those.
     
  17. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Yes, excellent texts, thank you for proving my point. God chose the Son. We are chosen if we are in His Son.

    Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

    Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

    Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

    Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

    Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

    Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

    Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

    Christ Jesus is the only 'chosen'. We have to be found in Him, through faith in the Father's choice, to be with that chosen.

    Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

    Who did the Father give to Jesus? Anyone who would came to him, freely, of their own free will, by their own choice which God gave to all in Christ Jesus (Genesis 3:15), the "whosoever will".

    What is the condition of being "in Christ"? Our 'belief'.

    Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

    Joh 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

    Joh_6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Think of it like the Ark of Noah. Jesus is that Ark. Anyone may be saved, but you have to choose to believe in the method God chose to be saved and so get on board. Only one Ark.
     
    #17 Alofa Atu, May 26, 2019
    Last edited: May 26, 2019
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  18. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    God loved them enough to create them, and give them life and give them every opportunity to choose to live in peace and love through His Son Christ Jesus. God also loves them enough to also honour their desire to not have life (they chose themselves over God's love, and because they do this, they violate the eternal Law of God, which is Life, which destroys themselves for anything other than the way of life is only death). God, in His mercy, brings them to their destruction, so that they no longer suffer, or bring suffering to others.

    You say 'destined', but that is not what scripture teaches. Will the finally impenitent end up in the lake of fire to be destroyed, the second death? Yes, but they didn't have to be, and they will acknowledge it themselves:

    Isa_45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

    Rom_14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

    Php_2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

    The confession is not one of repentance, but of being what the situation is, merely the acknowledgement of reality/truth. The confession of Judas.
     
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    verse 4 says He chose us IN HIM.....very clear
     
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  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    "JarodAb,

    Gen 1:31
    eccl7:29
     
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