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Is it really synergism?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Revmitchell, May 24, 2019.

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  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    The term “Synergism” is an accusation (unfounded) against those with whom those of the reformed position disagrees with in regards to salvation of man. In looking at varying definitions from sources such as monergism.com and Alpha and Omega ministries the writing on this was unnecessarily divisive so I will sum it up in my own words. It is believed by those who call themselves monergists that when synergism is used in the theological context it is a reference to the belief that man works synergistically with God to obtain salvation. If man is required to choose to respond to God’s offer of salvation without first having been regenerated then this is viewed as cooperating with God to effect man’s salvation. In other words it gives man and God equal responsibility in the final outcome of man being saved. This is in complete error and conflates man’s choice to believe with God’s choice to save.

    There are several problems with this. First, since God devised, set into motion, and determined the boundaries for man’s responsibility to respond to God’s offer of salvation (John 1:12-13) it leaves His sovereignty in tact and robs man of any merit or claim on his own salvation. Man did not decide that the Father would send His Son as a sacrifice on our behalf, God did (John 3:16). Man did not decide that the preaching of the gospel would be the element that would open man’s heart to God, God did Romans 1:16). Man did not decide that if man calls upon the Lord he would be saved, God did (Romans 10:13). Man did not decide that man would be the agent to deliver the gospel to the lost, God did (Romans 10:15; Matthew 28:18-20). Given these facts, it is understood that only God has the power, authority, and ability to save man. Man’s response, being necessary (Romans 10:13) and decided by God (John1:13), is not a meritorious factor.

    In Roman 6:23 God calls salvation a gift. It is a gift given to fallen man who desperately needs salvation. How are gifts given? Do we give gifts to those who do not want them? Do we give gifts to those who do not reach out and receive them? How does one receive the gift offered? We all know the answer which is reach out with our hands and take hold of it and take possession. Once someone reaches out and receives the gift, do we then say the receiver of the gift also took part in giving himself the gift, because he reached out (works) and took possession of it? Of course not! Neither should the one who hears the gospel and chooses to believe and calls out to God (Romans 10:9-13).

    Man hearing the gospel, believing the gospel, and receiving the gospel is in fact, not cooperating but simply taking possession of what is being offered. If we do not say that the receiving of worldly gifts is all part of the giving of those gifts then it is completely inconsistent to say the opposite when it comes to salvation.

    Further, I would add that in either one of the sources I have listed, which I believe to represent the vast majority of reformed doctrine, is the actual power of salvation mentioned (Romans 1:16). We will find, and those authors well know, that in Romans 1 the power of salvation is the gospel. It is no where mentioned, anywhere in scripture, that the power of salvation is being regenerated first. I believe that when this subject comes up the power of salvation should always be included. But let me tell you what does get included from not all but far too many in this reformed crowd. Snide, backhanded, insults. Examples:

    1. “To put it simply, synergism is the belief that faith is produced by our unregenerated human nature...”[1]

    Now, no one believes that and no one claims that. In other words it is a strawman. See when you leave out and important part of this discussion like Romans 1:16 then you can more easily lob false accusations such as that. Giving them the benefit of the doubt that they are intelligent and informed it leaves the conclusion that such accusations are intentional regardless of the lack of integrity it takes to do so. The response to objections to such false accusations are found at the Alpha and Omega web page where it is said:

    2. “Many people do not like being labeled “Arminian” (e.g. “I am neither Calvinist or Arminian!) The reality, however, is their theology functions synergistically. Thus, how they identify themselves is inconsistent with what they teach and believe. At the end of the day, they are Arminian, whether they like it or not.”[2]

    So this is a type of typical response that is often thrown out much like a projectile from an M16 rifle. They are right in how they characterize someone else’ position. They get to set the narrative about someone else’ position. And if someone else doesn’t agree with it or like it to bad so sad maybe one of these days you will be honest about your own position. In fact I have heard that very thing time and time again on this board.

    It seems that discussions on this board have been more of a blood sport than people reasoning through doctrine and sharing their positions. It is all about beating the other down and winning the debate. If you refuse to engage in that blood sport by pulling away from someone who goes down that path then you are labeled as ignoring because you have been proven wrong. If you reword your position in order to give clarification then you are labeled as walking back your original position.

    The truth is that mischaracterizing someone else’ position to fit your demonization of it is slanderous, it is ungodly, and should have no place in our discussions. The term synergism is not representative of a great many people and it is slanderous to insist it is.


    [1] Synergism | Monergism

    [2] Synergism | Alpha and Omega Ministries
     
    #1 Revmitchell, May 24, 2019
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  2. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Good points …and good luck. As per the person who has often used this poor argument of either one is a Monergerist or Synergist I directly challenged him while defining his fallacious argument and disingenuous debate methods yet he never responded and merely continues to repeat his …teaching. :Sneaky:Rolleyes


    What I wish the other side understood

    Well said, likewise I reject the either/or claims of such definitions which are typically meant to bolster one's own position. I see the Synergist/Monergist definitions as nothing more than a teaching tool of the Determinist view that amounts to a roundabout way to impose that their opposition believes they save themselves and thus merely offering a fallacious false dilemma. Or in short, a way to say, "you accept the term, gotcha"...


    What I wish the other side understood

    I think it pretty safe to say that those who place high value on utilizing labels for the purpose to impose beliefs and thus conclusions onto their opposition (“synergist”, etc.) stereotypically likewise will demonstrate they value the use of fallacious false dilemmas in their arguments.


    What I wish the other side understood

    No, the truth is you simply prefer your labels over the others because you believe you've cut to the chase with it, came up with the great either/or, solved the mystery, provided the ultimatum with your Question Begging ploy to deliver a fallacious false dilemma ["Is there a third view? No."] which you so obviously believe enables you to draw a conclusion against your opposition of "a cooperative view of salvation, a.ka/ - THAT ONE SAVES HIMSELF/i.e. "SYNERGISM." !

    ...And I know what is at the "heart of your terms". And I find it less than genuine...

    Once again, "I reject the either/or claims of such definitions which are typically meant to bolster one's own position. I see the Synergist/Monergist definitions as nothing more than a teaching tool of the Determinist view that amounts to a roundabout way to impose that their opposition believes they save themselves and thus merely offering a fallacious false dilemma. Or in short, a way to say, "you accept the term, gotcha"... "
     
    #2 Benjamin, May 25, 2019
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  3. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I see it as a debate tactic. As I said discussing theological issues has become a blood sport around here. The either or debate tactic is in fact a logical fallacy known as the "black and white fallacy". It is a poor use of discussion and shows the weakness of their own position, at least as far as they are able to present it. It also allows them to set the narrative so as to control the conversation. What we need to remember is the either or scenario is not found in scripture.


    I agree


    So as I said in the op, they insist their toxic characterization of someone else' position is the truth even if the person they are characterizing denies it. It is a backhanded way of questioning the integrity of those with whom they disagree.

    .
     
    #3 Revmitchell, May 25, 2019
  4. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    Deuteronomy 30:19 (NASB) "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

    Romans 8:15-16 (NASB) 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
     
    #4 Gup20, May 26, 2019
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  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    How do you understand this "black or white" fallacy to be different than the law of the excluded middle?
     
    #5 37818, May 26, 2019
  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Never heard of it put that way, I would say that the black and white fallacy is just that it is a fallacy. Reasonable conversations should not employ them because they are illogical and fallacious.
     
    #6 Revmitchell, May 26, 2019
  7. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Great verses, Can you give some commentary as to how you see them fitting into this discussion?
     
    #7 Revmitchell, May 27, 2019
  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    An aguement can only be the black and white fallacy if there cannot be only two possibilities.
     
    #8 37818, May 27, 2019
  9. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Such is almost never true but presented as such to try and shut down debate
     
    #9 Revmitchell, May 27, 2019
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  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Either the law of the excluded middle applies or it does not. If it applies, then it cannot be a black and white fallacy.
     
    #10 37818, May 27, 2019
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  11. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    Deuteronomy 19:15 (NASB)
    "A single witness shall not rise up against a man on account of any iniquity or any sin which he has committed; on the evidence of two or three witnesses a matter shall be confirmed.

    Deuteronomy 30 says 3 times that salvation is a human choice that God sets before man. It goes on to say that this choice is not too difficult for us, nor is it out of our capabilities to make the choice. It specifically says the choice is not made in heaven. This chapter of scripture is utterly unequivocal that salvation is not monergistic.

    But see what it says in Deu 30:19 - that two witnesses testify ... one from heaven & one from earth ... regarding the choice man makes for salvation.

    Romans 8 echos this as it names the two witnesses which testify of the choice - our spirit & God’s Spirit.

    Deuteronomy 30 is wholly destructive to Calvinistic theology. The only argument against it that Calvinists can muster is that it is for OT Jews & refers to The Law & not salvation. However, this is easily countered because Paul quotes from Deuteronomy 30 and tells us it is specifically referring to the salvation or righteousness of faith.

    Deuteronomy 30:1 (NASB) "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,

    Deuteronomy 30:6 (NASB) "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

    Deuteronomy 30:11-15 (NASB) 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

    Deuteronomy 30:16 (NASB) in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it.

    Deuteronomy 30:19 (NASB) "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

    Romans 10:5-11 (NASB) 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

    So we see clearly that both man & God must play a role in Salvation... God in providing it & man in choosing to believe it and thereby choosing life & blessing for himself. Salvation is the gift, but man may choose to accept it or reject it.

    Romans 5:17 (NASB)
    For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

    Romans 6:23 (NASB)
    For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
     
    #11 Gup20, May 28, 2019
  12. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    One more thing... Romans 8:15 says we have received the spirit of adoption by which we cry out ABBA Father... then goes on to say that Gods spirit & our spirit are the synergistic witnesses to the choice we make for salvation...

    Adoption is the very purpose of faith. This is literally HOW it works; when we have the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had, we become the adopted descendants of Abraham, and qualified as heirs of the righteousness God gave Abraham for his faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB) 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

    Galatians 4:22-28 (NASB) 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.

    Isaiah 54:1 (NASB) "Shout for joy, O barren one, you who have borne no child; Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not travailed; For the sons of the desolate one will be more numerous Than the sons of the married woman," says the LORD.
     
    #12 Gup20, May 28, 2019
  13. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    Now following logically then, if the purpose of faith is human adoption & that adoption produces righteousness through the kinship established, we see that faith does not act directly upon ones state of righteousness.. it works directly on ones state of human adoption. Once adopted, we inherit that righteousness. So righteousness is an indirect result of faith, rather than a direct result of faith.

    This is a bit of a showstopper in the debate of Arminius verses Calvin. Both of these men erroneously believed that faith affected directly salvation or righteousness. But once you realize that faith merely qualifies one for human adoption, the entire notion that one needs to be regenerated to choose human adoption becomes irrelevant, and the impetus behind the claim that salvation is monergistic dissolves in an instant. Humans adopting humans doesn’t effect the sovereignty of God. A human choice for human adoption doesn’t require a regenerated heart.

    Genesis 17:4-7 (NASB) 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

    So God promises Abraham would be the “father of many nations” and immediately makes an everlasting covenant with him & with those descendants from many nations. We know by this context this covenant is not meant for the one nation, but the many.

    The way I see it is God chose Abraham & his descendants as the elect or chosen ones... but He allows open enrollment in the elect group through the adoption of faith in the gospel.

    Deuteronomy 7:6
    For you are a holy peopleto the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen youto be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
    7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
    8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
    9 Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenantand His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

    Nehemiah 9:7
    You are the LORD God, Who chose AbramAnd brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
    8 You found his heart faithful before You,And made a covenant with himTo give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite— To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.

    So it is not God acting on man’s choice which saves man, but rather God own covenant/oath/promise which motivates God to make the faithful inherit righteousness.
     
    #13 Gup20, May 28, 2019
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Basically, either one holds that we still retain real free will since the fall, or we do not!
     
    #14 Yeshua1, May 28, 2019
  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    @Earth Wind and Fire ,
    Let me in on why you think my logical argument is funny. Thanks.

     
    #15 37818, May 28, 2019
  16. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    OK, 1st question (to clarify)... What is an “excluded middle?”
     
    #16 Earth Wind and Fire, May 28, 2019
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    That is commonly one of the three laws of logic. The law of identity, the law of non-contradiction, and the law of the excluded middle. The law of the excluded middle, either a thing is true or not true. As a Biblical example, either one has the Son of God or one does not have the Son of God, 1 John 5:12.
     
    #17 37818, May 28, 2019
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
  18. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    See, this is an example of what I am talking about. I reject this black or white fallacy and your attempt to set the narrative.. In fact my position is as I laid out in the op. I will expand on it a bit more. I reject total depravity. It is just not taught in scripture. I do hold to human depravity. We are all depraved but not in totality. We were made in God's image and that has not been totally lost.

    Those of the reformed persuasion like to focus on the idea of whose will determines salvation and then likes to twist the receiving of the gift of salvation as playing a part in the giving and of the will. The will that determines the salvation of man begins and ends at the time the plan to save man was devised and decided by God. How man responds to the free offer of salvation is not relevant to the determination of who has the will, power, and authority to freely offer it in the first place.

    Further, scripture makes clear that the power to salvation is the gospel. Not the will.
     
    #18 Revmitchell, May 28, 2019
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  19. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Strawman arguments is #4 on my list of lame arguments that Calvinists use.
     
    #19 InTheLight, May 28, 2019
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  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The One that allows a lost sinnerto get saved is the Holy Spirit, working thru the Gospel, for if the Spirit did not choose at that time to open up the hearts and minds of the sinner, they remain spiritually deaf and dumb!
     
    #20 Yeshua1, May 28, 2019
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