1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Pledge of Allegiance not what the Founding Fathers had in mind

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by asterisktom, Jun 4, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 1 of 7
  1. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    4,201
    Likes Received:
    607
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I once taught in a Christian school that started every day with the Pledge of Allegiance. For many of the students, in Paul Simon's words, it was merely a Pledge of Allegiance "to the wall". I do not believe that we should have this pledge any more. Not that I am Anti-American, but pro-American (as far as allegiance to an earthly country is called for).

    Question to those of you who argue *for this pledge: Which one of the writers of the Federalist Papers would have supported this pledge - an innovation of centuries later? Or which of the other founding fathers would have supported it?

    Another reason I am against even having a pledge is that it is all symbol and no substance. Instead of wasting time forcing students to mouth words for which they have no understanding or frame of reference why not focus more on teaching the Constitution (warts and all) and writings like the Federalist Papers?

    Why not teach, carefully and honestly, a history of our country, including both high and low points, examples exemplary as well as those cautionary?
     
    #1 asterisktom, Jun 4, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
  2. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    41,980
    Likes Received:
    1,485
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes, and don't forget the Anti-Federalist Papers.
     
    #2 KenH, Jun 4, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
  3. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    4,201
    Likes Received:
    607
    Faith:
    Baptist
    By all means. Good point.
     
    #3 asterisktom, Jun 4, 2019
  4. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2014
    Messages:
    13,795
    Likes Received:
    2,468
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Say the pledge and then have a class on the Constitution.
     
    #4 Reynolds, Jun 4, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
  5. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    11,851
    Likes Received:
    1,084
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The pledge is recited each morning at the local high school. I assume it's recited throughout the district.

    Enforced patriotism, like enforced religion, is of little value, IMO. History should be taught, warts and all, but you can't really do it in a lot of classes.
     
    #5 rsr, Jun 4, 2019
  6. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2014
    Messages:
    13,795
    Likes Received:
    2,468
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You can teach history anywhere.
     
    #6 Reynolds, Jun 4, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 22, 2002
    Messages:
    11,384
    Likes Received:
    944
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I taught for over three decades in an handful of schools in two districts. We said the pledge every morning. I always taught what the words mean and the history of the pledge even if I was teaching math.

    Lots of teachers do that.

    I don't understand the aversion to it nor the assumption that students don't know what it means.
     
    #7 Scarlett O., Jun 4, 2019
    • Like Like x 4
    • Winner Winner x 1
  8. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    52,013
    Likes Received:
    3,649
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I can help. They do not like the flag or the pledge because they do not like what they see it represents, which is the founding of this country. Today those ideas are called "the far right". This country was founded on Judeo Christian principles. The primary ideas of this country were all Christian based. There is a current move to minimize and delete American history so that people do not try to hold to those values. They want those values gone. The easiest way to get rid of them is to move them out of sight. So they pretend that the flag and the pledge are a problem and we should just forget them. I can tell you in Orange county Florida the school system has the students stand and recite the pledge.

    By the way what is called "enforced patriotism" today was just normal every day patriotism originally.
     
    #8 Revmitchell, Jun 5, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  9. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    4,201
    Likes Received:
    607
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Lots of teachers do lots of things I wouldn't.

    The aversion is twofold, for me at least. The practice is not Christian in spirit. And, as I wrote, exactly the kind of thing that the Founding Fathers were against.

    I was never for teaching robotlike clones mouthing words we give them. I always rather had my students think before they speak.
     
    #9 asterisktom, Jun 5, 2019
  10. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    4,201
    Likes Received:
    607
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Quite mistaken. Judging by this and your other comments about our country being Judeo-Christian I can safely say that you have not carefully studied our history. I suggest you read some biographies of some of our early framers of the Constitution, presidents, and leaders. You would be hard-pressed to find a true Christian in the whole lot.

    Really? Saying the pledge back in the first century? It was an invention of Francis Bellamy somewhere around 1890 (thereabouts). The "under God" part was not added till the 1950's. Now many Christians act like it is one of the creeds.
     
    #10 asterisktom, Jun 5, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    52,013
    Likes Received:
    3,649
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Nothing true about this post
     
    #11 Revmitchell, Jun 5, 2019
  12. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    4,201
    Likes Received:
    607
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Afraid to actually research. I understand.
     
    #12 asterisktom, Jun 5, 2019
  13. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    38,982
    Likes Received:
    2,615
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If it were up to me - I would have my class say the pledge one day a week.
    Also as previously stated - it was recommended that the constitution be taught following the pledge
    Another possibility - show this video - click here

    We are not pledging to a wall or a piece of cloth "of the USA for which it stands"

    I am proud to say the pledge - realizing what so many have paid for the freedom
    in the USA. I realize we are not perfect -but we are one of the best countries in the world.
     
    #13 Salty, Jun 5, 2019
  14. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    24,988
    Likes Received:
    2,268
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So you are a mind reader. I always thought that would come in handy when negotiating.

    Who cares? Is their approval the gold standard? Many of those people were slave owners. Do you support them?

    That mind reading ability--does it ever interfere in daily life? It's an astonishing skill.

    How do you know these things are going untaught in geographies you have no connection with?

    How do you know these things are not being taught?
     
    #14 InTheLight, Jun 5, 2019
    • Like Like x 2
  15. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    24,988
    Likes Received:
    2,268
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You've stated the founding fathers were against it (or would be against it) twice now--in the thread title and just now in this post. You haven't shown WHY they would be against it. How about telling us why they would oppose it.

    Also, capitalization of Founding Fathers is noted, as if they are to be revered.
     
    #15 InTheLight, Jun 5, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. FollowTheWay

    FollowTheWay Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Messages:
    4,998
    Likes Received:
    210
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Myth of a Christian Nation: How the Quest for Political Power Is Destroying the Church - Greg Boyd - ReKnew

    “America wasn’t founded as a theocracy,” he said. “America was founded by people trying to escape theocracies. Never in history have we had a Christian theocracy where it wasn’t bloody and barbaric. That’s why our Constitution wisely put in a separation of church and state.

    “I am sorry to tell you,” he continued, “that America is not the light of the world and the hope of the world. The light of the world and the hope of the world is Jesus Christ.”
     
    #16 FollowTheWay, Jun 5, 2019
    • Winner Winner x 1
  17. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    24,988
    Likes Received:
    2,268
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That's a nice strawman you got there.
     
    #17 InTheLight, Jun 5, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
  18. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    4,201
    Likes Received:
    607
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I was being ironic. To me they are just founders. To many who are determined to see the founders as Christians (on the flimsiest of proof) they are "Founding Fathers".
     
    #18 asterisktom, Jun 5, 2019
  19. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    4,201
    Likes Received:
    607
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No, that would be you, not me. My comment is based on talking to my students, high school, especially. The Paul Simon reference is mine, but the general point was made by many of them.

    I have taught for twenty years. Are you a teacher?
     
    #19 asterisktom, Jun 5, 2019
  20. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    4,201
    Likes Received:
    607
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I was going to do just that, but decided against it. If someone more civil responds I might. You, with all your snideness, are not worth the trouble.
     
    #20 asterisktom, Jun 5, 2019
Page 1 of 7
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...