All Atonement is Limited by Something

It is universal resurrection, but not universal salvation.

 

I don't even know what that means

 

1 Peter 1:2 KJVS
[2] Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

I believe God chose his elect to be those who place their faith in his Son Jesus. In the foreknowledge of God the Father, Jesus was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world. Though Christ tasted death for every man, the blood is only applied to those who believe.

 

Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
​

All will be resurrected, but not all will have salvation in the resurrection. Universalists incorrectly assume that, because all will be resurrected all will be saved. But scripture is quite clear -- all will be resurrected, but not all will be saved.

When you think about it, it makes sense. Adam's corporate, universal judgment will be repealed so that we can be judged as individuals at the great white throne judgement. Once Adam's judgment is repealed, it necessitates resurrection of everyone to face the individual judgement.

Calvinists incorrectly assume that Christ's atonement is limited and have no universal effects. However, this is not true... Christ does have a universal resurrection affect, but that doesn't mean it is universal salvation due to the 2nd individual judgement of the Great White Throne judgement... some may absolutely be resurrected to everlasting contempt.

1Co 15:21-22 NASB 21 For since by a man [came] death, by a man also [came] the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.​

So this passage, we see that just as Adam's judgment of death was universal, so too will the resurrection that comes from Christ be universal. For Adam, all of humanity ... all the animals... all the plants ... even the physical earth itself was cursed for his one, single sin... the condemnation was universal. In Christ, the restoration is universal as well. However, this doesn't guarantee eternal life to all as the universalists suppose. This universal restoration is followed by the great white throne judgement... an individual judgment. It is in that individual judgement where Christ's righteousness is applied to us or not.

 

Deflection and obfuscation on display.

Theory:
The whole world means the whole world.

Christ died as a ransom for all means Christ died as a ransom for all.

God desires all men be saved means God desires all men to be saved.

 

[1Co 15:21-22 NASB] 21 For since by a man [came] death, by a man also [came] the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.​

The universality of the atonement is in resurrection from the dead, not in applying eternal righteousness.

[Act 24:15 NASB] 15 having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

[Jhn 5:28 NASB] 28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good [deeds] to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil [deeds] to a resurrection of judgment.​

Resurrection comes to all just as death came to all because Jesus' righteousness necessitates a repeal of Adam's judgement (death). Just as Adam's judgment was universal, so too is Christ's resurrection universal because the universal judgment is repealed. However, this doesnt' mean salvation is universal because Christ's righteousness will only be applied on a limited bases in the Great White Throne judgment, which will be an individual judgment (unlike Adam's universal judgment).

Therefore, when it talks about Christ's atonement affecting the whole world or all mankind, we can see this is true simultaneously with the fact that not all will be made righteous in the resurrection.

 

I have read 2 Peter many times and it still says the same thing. Why not show me what you believe it's saying.
MB

 

You ignore context. That's not deflection or obfuscation. That is your ignoring context and me pointing it out.

2 Peter was written to a specific people group. The elect. It is talking about the elect. He does not will that any of the elect perish.

 

Bad translation (RSV, ESV, etc) or unbiblical interpretation.

 

Hi Gup, I totally disagree. Try using reconciliation instead of atonement.

We, humankind, are conceived in Adam, thus separated from God. Not everyone enters into Christ so not everyone's judgement is repealed.

 

Yet another "you, you, you"post devoid of content. Just posting one charge after another, and attributing poor behavior to others.

Theory:
The whole world means the whole world.

Christ died as a ransom for all means Christ died as a ransom for all.

God desires all men be saved means God desires all men to be saved.

 

Your disagreement isn't that the elect are who he is speaking about but what the word "world" really means. I expected your redefinition of the word world and you gave me no answer to that at all.
You see world means all not just a few and you can't prove the verse 2nd Peter 3:9 isn;t speaking of everyone .. If it said or mention a specific world that would be a different matter. Such as the world of Calvinist or even the world of the elect. The biggest problem you have is it does not make a specific mention leaving only one definition and that's everyone. Not to mention while you do not believe that all men can come to Christ simply because all are drawn Jn 12 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
There is so much in scripture that Proves that election is corporate not individual. Scripture never even hint's at individual election. Yes we are chosen before the foundation of the world yet we have to make our calling and election sure other wise it's void by the very fact we have to make it sure.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
MB.

 

One wonders whom the animals, plants, and ground were conceived in that they should be cursed by God... and what part of the atonement reconciles them? Since their destruction is part of Adam’s judgment, I wonder how Adam’s judgment will be set aside for them. What is the mechanism, and does it have anything to do with Jesus? Does anyone get “forgiven” for Adam’s judgement, or will that judgement stand for all time? Since we are under Adam’s judgment, what mechanism absolves us of his judgment?

How does this come to pass?

Isaiah 65:25 (NASB)
"The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent's food. They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain," says the LORD.

The question I’m driving at is does Jesus’ work have any universal effects on the whole of creation? If so, what is the mechanism?

 

Hi Gup,what makes you think plants, animals and ground were cursed by God?

Instead of using the term atonement, use the term reconciliation. That is the actual meaning of the Greek word translated "atonement."

Rom 5:11
And not only this, but we also exult in God, through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Rom 11:15

For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

2Co 5:18

Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

2Co 5:19

namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

And when did we "receive" the reconciliation, when Christ died or when God transferred us into Christ and we underwent the washing of regeneration?

 

". . . And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. . . ." -- Genesis 3:17-19.

 

I read this as saying because Adam sinned and was therefore removed from the garden, He had to grow his food in non-garden soil, which produced besides thorns and thistles, herbs and grains for bread, and other nourishing plants. So the curse seems to be that Adam and descendants had to work the ground. I see no evidence the ground outside the garden was altered, rather the ground available to Adam was altered, he was put out of the garden.

Note this is minimalist view, not an expansionist view. People will have to work and toil to obtain food from the ground.

Gen 8:21
The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.

Heb 6:7
For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;


Heb 6:8
but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

 

But what does the whole world mean? "The eyes of the whole world are on this moment" does that mean each individual person?

If he died as a ransom for all then all are paid for all have eternal life. You need to take your theory to its logical conclusion. It doesn't work.

If God desires something then it is done. He does not desire that every individual person be saved otherwise He would save them.

 

Gen 3:14-21 NASB 14 The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life; 15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel." 16 To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you." 17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. 18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; 19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return." 20 Now the man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all [the] living. 21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.

Ok... that seems harmless enough.

Were we reconciled from our sin or from Adam's sin? Or both?

Rom 5:12-21 NASB 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not like [that which came] through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment [arose] from one [transgression] resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift [arose] from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

So whereas one act of sin produced death for all, one act of righteousness produces life for all. But see it contrasts the righteousness of Christ with the sin in that there isjust ONE transgression yet the free gift of righteousness will cover MANY transgressions. It's covering something different than what caused it! If Christ's reconciliation is covering the thing that caused death - the one transgression - then why doesn't it say the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but the free gift arose from one transgression resulting in justification?

It is because of righteousness that ALL are resurrected from Adam's judgment (Adam's judgement is repealed), but it is the many, individual sins which Christ's reconciliation and the gift of righteousness are meant to cover. It is the second judgment - the great white throne judgment - where that gift of righteousness is applied to us, not the original judgment of death. If Christ's righteousness doesn't cover that original judgment, then that judgment must be repealed and annulled somehow. If Christ's righteousness were to cover the one transgression, then it would affect everyone who was original affected by Adam's sin. It makes sense that, if Adam's judgment was a corporate judgement, and a single, righteous person existed, that judgment would need to be repealed so that individual judgments can take place. This would result in universal resurrection and a a lifting of the whole curse.

 

Talk about a biased take on scripture!

1) I offered several verses where "whole world" or whole inhabited earth was used by John and I understood all the examples to refer to all of fallen mankind and not some of fallen mankind.

2) Many believe the ransom bought the choice to save sinners according to His redemption plan. So you say Christ paid for all to have eternal life, but my view is Christ paid for the opportunity of redemption according to God's plan.

3) If God desires all men to be saved according to His redemption plan, which is those whose faith God credits as righteousness, then non-believers would not be saved.

Basically your post offers strawman arguments against a non-existent position, which is deflection once again. Try actually addressing the view presented, it is so simple a child can grasp it.

Christ died for all mankind, becoming the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world. Only those God transfers into Christ receive the reconciliation provided by Christ's sacrifice.

 

No, only those transferred into Christ are made righteous, and perfect and blameless. Christ's reconcilation covers everything God holds against us, past present and future.

To repeat, only those transferred into Christ receive the reconciliation.