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Featured Self-defense

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Reformed, Sep 8, 2019.

  1. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    In another thread, the issue of killing in self-defense was briefly discussed. This topic was not in keeping with the OP, so I started this thread.

    Matthew 5:44 is often used by pacifists to defend not committing any violent act even if it is in self-defense or the defense of others. I think that view is wrong because the text is about wholesale persecution, and not defending one's life.

    Even though I own firearms, I have no desire to shoot anyone. I will do everything possible to avoid a situation that will involve deadly force. However, sometimes even the best of intentions are put to the test. If an intruder breaks into my house and threatens my family, I will not think twice. I will use whatever means necessary to neutralize the threat and that includes a firearm. If that results in the death of the intruder, I will grieve but my conscience will be clear.

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    #1 Reformed, Sep 8, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
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  2. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    Confessing Christ in the face of martyrdom shows your commitment to our Savior.

    Standing by as a home invader slaughters your household shows your commitment to pacifism.
     
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  3. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    So, you make a distinction between persecution because of your faith in Christ and any assault that doesn't stem from religious persection?

    Peace to you
     
  4. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    Yes. Would you make a distinction between being fed to the lions in the Coliseum for your faith and happening upon a lion whilst hiking if Africa and being eaten?
     
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  5. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    As far as I know, they don't feed people to lions in the Coliseum for your faith anymore, and I don't hike in Africa.

    Maybe a better analogy.... is there a distinction between someone who breaks into your home because they hate Christians want to harm you, or someone breaks into your home because they want to rob you?

    Peace to you
     
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The passage is within the context of a larger passage dealing with the heart of a man which goes deeper than the action in question (it addresses actual righteousness).

    For this reason I do not believe it mandates pacifism (although depending on the person, it may) any more than it refers to Christian persecution.

    That said, given the nature of past discussions I am not sure hatred is not often involved in "self defense" actions. If a man tells you he has a knife and demands your wallet, do you give him your wallet and try to share some seed of the gospel or do you shoot him? Do you give up your car to the carjacker or do you shoot him?

    What is the value of a man's life? $100, a few credit cards and a wallet? A vehicle?

    Or does it depend on one's view of the Atonement (whether or not one accepts Christ died for this hypothetical criminal)?
     
  7. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    A man who threatens your life in order to obtain what you have is not prepared to listen to you no matter what you give up. It is not reasonable to assume so.
     
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  8. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    No one is willing to listen to the gospel unless God moves upon that person. Who knows whether God has brought you into that person's life for that very reason, to share the gospel?

    Peace to you.
     
  9. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I reject the first part of that. While the second part can be partially true I will not be testing that out.
     
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I believe it is most reasonable to assume the most common result when we consider these hypotheticals.

    Do you believe that the majority of robberies (where a person is personally robbed or carjacked) results in the death of the victim or do you believe most result in theft?

    Insofar as a person listening to what I would have to say, this board should be enough to dismiss that as a motivation my talking. :D
     
  11. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    If I can acquiesce to the criminal's demands without endangering my life or the life of others, I will do so. However, carjackings and robberies do no follow a script. If the criminal is brandishing a weapon that communicates to me that they are prepared to use it. That has to be taken into account. Knives can make someone just as dead as a .45 caliber round from a Glock 21. I have an acquaintance who faced an attempted robbery outside of a convenience store. The robber had a knife. My acquaintance unholstered his concealed weapon and took two steps back. He told the robber if he made a move towards him with the knife that he would shoot him. The would-be robber fled. Would giving the robber the wallet have ended the situation without another weapon having to make an appearance? No one knows. I am not advocating a Wild West mentality. No one should be out looking for a confrontation so that they can use deadly force.
     
  12. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    If a man threatens my life regardless of what his demands are I am going to assume it is my life, my families life or his. He better be bigger, faster and stronger than me.
     
  13. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    lol and still rotf
     
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God has given to us the means to defend ourselves and our homes, did He not give israel their Army for protection?
     
  15. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Home invasions are rare, yet often puffed up as the reason for having weapons.

    Countries do the same, so I wonder if it isn’t innate human nature.

    Here is my own view.

    I consider God will allow nothing to touch my life or that of those under my authority as a father and husband that us ultimately not for our good.

    That is what the Scriptures teach.

    Therefore, because My Father has far more authority and awareness of all matters concerning me, I have no need other than to rely upon his providence.

    That doesn’t make me a pacifist nor an anarchist.

    It makes me a Psalm 23 believer that looks at the writing of a warrior, and through that mindset, wrote of the authority over him.

    If God appoints, and the people agree to be ruled by that appointment, then be the warrior, too.

    Individuals are not a country. When a country agrees individuals have authority over life and death in their own castle, then the population has been warned, and should one invade the castle, the warrior should take to the battle.

    Personally, I wouldn’t rely upon a pop, but the bluster of a cannon.

    The best home defense is a 12 gauge shotgun with buckshot.

    Pretty much will cut a person in half, and that takes away the willing desire to do much to hurt others. Such suddenly have other more grave concerns.

    Plus, I don’t have to aim, just point in the general direction.
     
  16. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    I'm convinced Jesus does not want his disciples to be pacifists, especially when the opportunity arises to protect an innocent person (be it family, friend or enemy). And I am convinced he wanted his disciples to be armed and prepared.

    Luke 22:36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.​

    But he was also clear, we're not to become a conquering army. 2 swords were enough for the disciples.

    Luke 22:38 The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”

    “That’s enough!” he replied.​

    I think that's the balance. Christians should not be stockpiling weapons, nor weaponless. We should be armed in case the opportunity arises to help, but never to rebel against or usurp governing authorities.
     
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  17. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I have a very nice and sharp ninja sword and a Chinese double edged sword, as well as some other fun deadly Asian weapons.

    Alas, the little lady rejects the very thought of a gun in the house. But that's okay. With a sword, all you have to know is that the point goes in the other guy. :Cool
     
  18. Hollow Man

    Hollow Man Active Member

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    Martyrdom doesn't mean you're killed because somebody doesn't like Christians. It means you're killed because you won't recant your faith in Christ.

    If somebody comes into my house, or meets me on the street, and says, "I hate Christians, so I'm going to kill you", my response isn't going to be, "Hooray! I get to be a martyr!" My response is, "Well, if that's your plan, Pilgrim, I sure hope you can run faster than 1150 feet per second."
     
  19. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Actually, (imo) one has a greater chance of being assaulted in church then at home.

    Home invasion assault is not as serious as out of home assault.

    Road rage is far more common, and the frequency seems to have risen at an alarming rate the last few years.

    Road rage in the United States: a statistical overview
    • In 2006, only 80 fatal crashes were related to road rage.
    • In 2015, the number of road rage-related fatal car accidents was up to 467, up 500% in just 9 years.
    • In 2014, 247 road rage incidents involved a gun.
    • In 2016, road rage cases involving a firearm increased to 620
    • 136 people were killed in firearm-involved road rage incidents from 2013-2017.
    • Road rage has led to an estimated 300 deaths since 2013. (From: https://www.thezebra.com/road-rage-statistics/)
     
  20. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    In the last year in which there were statistics, there were 3.7 million household burglaries in the United States. In 28% of those burglaries, there was a resident present during the burglary. 28% of 3.7 million is 1.03 million burglaries in which a resident was present during the burglary. in 7% of all household burglaries, a household member experienced some form of violent victimization. 7% of 3.7 million is 259,000 burglaries. Those statistics by the U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice
    Programs, Bureau of Justice Statistics, tells me that home invasions are not as rare as you think they are.

    That is your weapon of choice. I have no problem using a Remington 12-gauge or a handgun to protect my home and family.

    Personally, I do not care whether the country agrees whether I have authority over life and death in my own castle. I am going to defend it whether the law is on my side or not. I would rather face the consequences of the law knowing my family is safe than to be on the right side of the law with my family having been killed or wounded.
     
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