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WARNINGS NOT TO DEPART THE FAITH (HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-39)

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 3rdAngel, Sep 17, 2019.

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  1. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Yes it is true that kai is used here for the english word if in v6. This still only demonstrates that your post is irrelavant to your claims that it effects the meaning of HEBREWS 6:4-8 not being those who were "ONCE BELIEVERS" The full meaning of the word is defined here (Bible Hub). kaí is never adversative, i.e. it never means "however" ("but") – unlike the principal conjunction (waw) in OT Hebrew (G. Archer).] My previous posts are not irrelavant as the application both was to God's Salvation and Promises being a "CONDITIONAL PARTICLE" to the HEBREW and GREEK scriptures to "BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word.
     
    #201 3rdAngel, Sep 23, 2019
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  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    My understanding of Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 and James 4:17 does not give me your beliefs regarding little children who die before an age where they can repent, believe and follow God's word, or even understand what is good so not to sin. It is against forum rules to suppose what you believe or why. You need to tell me. Thanks.
     
    #202 37818, Sep 23, 2019
  3. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    Wow, you really are avoiding John 12:35-36 like the plague. I've never seen someone avoid passages like this.

    John 12:35 Jesus therefore said to them, “For a little while longer the light is among you. Walk while you have the light, that darkness may not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes. 36 “While you have the light, believe in the light, in order that you may become sons of light.”​

    Enlightenment is given, but must be responded to in faith. That's straight from Jesus, ".... the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man." (John 1:9)
     
    #203 Calminian, Sep 23, 2019
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  4. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Not at all I have addressed your post showing you are in error by denying the rest of the scriptures provided in HEBREWS 6:4-8 showing that these people were "ONCE BELIEVERS" that were "ENLIGHTENED" by the Word of God It is used in CONTEXT of "RECEIVING THE WORD OF GOD", "RECEIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT", "TASTING OF THE WORLD TO COME" and they "TASTING OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT (Christ)" then it goes on to say they "FALL AWAY" from the faith back into a life of wilful known sin.

    It is you who is avoiding the OP and HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39 like the plague.

    Now please show me how these people were not "ONCE BELIEVERS"? If you cannot why do you not believe the scriptures provided? They are God's Word not mine and we should believe and follow them.

    This post is only sent in love and as a help to you. I pray you can receive these words in the Spirt they were provided (Love).

    Ignoring God's Word does not make them dissappear.
     
    #204 3rdAngel, Sep 23, 2019
  5. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Hi numbers, no worries. It is sin that keeps us out of God's kingdom and why we need a Savior because we are all sinners. We are not held accountable to sin until we know it is sin. With those thoughts in mind please re-read ACTS 17:30-31 and JAMES 4:17 and tell me what you think these scriptures mean.

    God bless
     
    #205 3rdAngel, Sep 23, 2019
  6. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    Well here's your argument, in a paraphrase.

    "I believe enlightenment means saved. Jesus said enlightenment is something that must be responded to with faith, but that doesn't agree with my definition of enlightenment, so I won't discuss that passage with you, i'll just keep repeating that enlightenment means saved in Heb. 6:4-8."

    I respect your right to that argument. I just don't think it's a good one.
     
    #206 Calminian, Sep 23, 2019
  7. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Sorry my friend I believe and have said no such thing. These are your words and not mine. I have already posted elsewhere that there is no such term as "SAVED" which is generally used by those who believe the false Gospel of "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED. No one receives everlasting life until they "ENDURE TEMPTATION TO THE END" *JAMES 1:12. However, HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39 is a WARNING to "BELIEVERS that in regards to those who had departed the faith. These people according to God's Word (not mine) were "ONCE BELIEVERS" that did not "ENDURE TEMPTATION TO THE END.

    I posted earlier more that once now showing that God's Word (not mine) says "ENLIGHTENMENT" means to "KNOW" this is written in CONTEXT to "RECEIVING THE WORD OF GOD", "RECEIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT", "TASTING OF THE WORLD TO COME" and they "TASTING OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT (Christ)" then it goes on to say they "FALL AWAY" from the faith back into a life of wilful known sin.

    The above is what you are avoiding!

    I have already posted from the start that these people are not saved because they have "FALLEN AWAY from the truth to become "UNBELIEVERS". That being said the scripture here are WARNINGS to "BELIEVERS" not to FALL AWAY and depart the faith and the example given here are to those who were "ONCE BELIEVERS" but had departed the faith.

    Now please show me how these people were not "ONCE BELIEVERS"? If you cannot why do you not believe the scriptures provided? They are God's Word not mine and we should believe and follow them.

    Ignoring God's Word does not make them dissappear. God's Salvation and promises are "CONDITIONAL" on BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's Word. We can all believe as we wish, however as will all answer to God come judgment day. At this time however there will be many dissappointed at this time thinking they had salvation but never did because they did not really believe and follow Gods' Word *MATTHEW 7:22-26. How sad would that be when those in this position had the chance to hear God's Word and follow it but instead chose to turn away from hearing God's Word because they did not know the time of their visitation and did not hear God calling them.

    God's sheep hear his Voice (the Word of God) and follow him.
     
    #207 3rdAngel, Sep 23, 2019
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  8. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    Yes, you've ignored John 12:35-36 which explicitly says enlightenment must be responded to with faith before it is taken away.

    Instead you've insisted that other terms like tasted refer to salvation and therefore enlightenment must also refer to salvation.

    But if you were thinking logically, you'd say tasted is not referring to salvation, since it's akin to enlightenment, which Jesus said comes before faith. Makes sense because tasted is not the same as drinking or consuming, which would be more in line with salvation—drinking living water. Apparently you're saying all we have to do is taste it.
     
    #208 Calminian, Sep 23, 2019
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  9. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Not at all. Your making things up now because you cannot address the scriptures in the posts provided to you that show your in error from HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39 so you seek to move away from the posts and scriptures provided to you which are the topic of discussion from God's Word in the OP. Now if you are not willing to address my posts, questions and scriptures provided that disagree with you. Then you are only ignoring God's word and not interested in a discussion in the first place. JOHN 12:35-36 only agrees with the OP and what has been shared with you here. Only those who by faith "BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word are his people. Those who fall away being "ONCE BELIEVERS" are no longer believers but "UNBELIEVERS" and this is the warning given in HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39 to "BELIEVERS"

    God's Sheep Hear His Voice (the Word of God) and follow him.
     
    #209 3rdAngel, Sep 23, 2019
  10. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    Well I'm moving to the words of Jesus to figure out what enlightenment means. You're moving away to your own reasoning to decide for yourself with enlightenment means. You've decided, a priori, that is a salvation term, but that's your own reasoning. That's not from Scripture.

    Jesus is the light of the world who enlightens every man (John 1:9). Jesus beseeched us to respond to enlightenment with faith that we might become sons of light.

    John 12:36 “While you have the light, believe in the light, in order that you may become sons of light.”​

    That word become completely destroys your entire theory that enlightenment is a salvation term. One does not become a son of light by being enlightened. One becomes a son of light be responding to the enlightenment God gives with belief.

    The individual in Hebrews 6, who is described as enlightened, was never described as believing in the light. He is merely called once enlightened. Jesus specifically said, that's not enough to become a son of light.
     
    #210 Calminian, Sep 23, 2019
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  11. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Ok friend you believe as you wish your salvation is between you and God. I choose to believe and follow God's Word. I only wish you the best and hope to see you in God's Kingdom. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear.

    Gods Sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God) and follow him. Those who are not God's Sheep do not hear his Word neither do they follow.
     
    #211 3rdAngel, Sep 23, 2019
  12. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    Thanks, I feel the same for you.

    But, I disagree you're following God's word. Unfortunately, you're avoiding the words of Jesus in John 12:36, which clearly says enlightenment is not enough. You have to place your trust in the light, to become sons of light.

    John 12:36 “While you have the light, believe in the light, in order that you may become sons of light.”​

    I haven't heard one comment yet on this verse.
     
    #212 Calminian, Sep 23, 2019
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  13. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    You have only been provided God's Word. God's Word is God's and not mine. In response you provide your own words to deny God's Word which are your words and not God's. This post only shows you are not reading the posts and the scriptures provided to you and is not true at all. Please see post # 209 linked. Not to mention all the scriptures provided in post # 204 linked that show you are in error. The light shines in darkness; but the darkness does not understand. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. Light is come into the world, but men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. Every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that does truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. Who can know the Word of God when there is no Word? Do we come to the light or do we not? By their fruits you shall know them. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear but only shows those who do not come to the light and choose to hide in darkness. There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed come judgment day.

    God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God) and follow him. Those who do not hear and do not follow are not God's Sheep.
     
    #213 3rdAngel, Sep 23, 2019
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  14. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    All those are compatible with John 12:36 which says that we who have the light have to respond (believe) in order to become sons of light. There's a difference between having light and becoming a son of light.

    John 12:36 “While you have the light, believe in the light, in order that you may become sons of light.”​

    The Hebrews author speaks of one who is enlightened but not yet a son of light. It's so simple.
     
    #214 Calminian, Sep 23, 2019
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  15. mailmandan

    mailmandan Active Member

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    Amen! As I already explained in post #65, the words once enlightened means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.

    WARNINGS NOT TO DEPART THE FAITH (HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-39)
     
    #215 mailmandan, Sep 23, 2019
  16. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    HEBREWS 6:4-8 says that these people had the light but departed from the light. God's Word not mine says these people were "ENLIGHTENED" by the Word of God It is used in CONTEXT of "RECEIVED THE WORD OF GOD", "RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT", "TASTED OF THE GOOD WORLD TO COME" and "TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT (Christ)" then it goes on to say they "FALL AWAY" from the faith back into a life of wilful known sin. These people were "ONCE BELIEVERS" that departed the faith. These are God's Word not mine and we should believe them. The scriptures in HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39 is not talking about those who never believed and followed God's Word.
     
    #216 3rdAngel, Sep 23, 2019
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  17. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Your post was responded to in detail showing you through the scriptures why you are in error and showing you were making claims that no one was ever making and said. Yet you choose not to believe.

    Your post was simply your words denying God's Word. It is God's Word (not my words) that says both in HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39 is written for "BELIEVERS" and are a WARNING to "BELIEVERS" not to depart the faith. These are God's Word not mine and they disagree with your words which are not God's which teach those who fall away and depart the faith were...

    1. They were once enlightened; HEBREWS 6:4
    2. Tasted of the Heavenly gift; HEBREWS 6:4
    3. Were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; HEBREWS 6:4
    4. Having tasted of the good Word of God; HEBREWS 6:5
    5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come HEBREWS 6:5

    Then we have your words from your post teaching; No! God's Word does not really say what is written. According to your words, these people were;

    1. never really were once enlightened (MMD)
    2. never tasted of the heavenly gift (MMD)
    3. never really were partakers of the Holy Ghost (MMD)
    4. never really tasted the good word of God (MMD)
    5. never really tasted of the power of the world to come (MMD).

    These my friend are your words that deny God's Word when only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them. I know who I believe and follow and it is not you.

    God's Sheep hear his Voice (the Word of God) and follow Him. Those who are not God's Sheep do not hear His Voice.

    "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED" is a false Gospel that leads all those who believe and follow it away from God's Word. It is the first lie proclaimed by the father of lies in Eden to Eve which caused the fall of mankind and teaches you can break God's commandment and not surely die *GENESIS 3:1-5.

    Sin is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:6-10.

    RED FLAGS alright to those who lead others away from God's Word. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that seek to break the commandments of God.

    Salvation is conditional on believing and following God's Word.

    If we do not believe and follow God's Word (present tense) then we are not God's Sheep *JOHN 10:1-10; JOHN 10:26-27.

    This is only written in love and as a help to you.
     
    #217 3rdAngel, Sep 23, 2019
  18. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    Yes, they had the light, but didn't believe in the light to become sons of light. Hmmm, where have I heard that before? Oh yeah:

    John 12:35 Then Jesus said to them, “A little while longer the light is with you. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you; he who walks in darkness does not know where he is going. 36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them.​

    Nope, doesn't say that. The Hebrews authors said partakers, not receivers. You just added to Scripture.

    but not consumed.

    Your words, not Scripture. You're adding to the Word of God. They were enlightened with knowledge, but not called sons of light because they did not believe in that light.
     
    #218 Calminian, Sep 23, 2019
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  19. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    Thanks, didn't catch this before. Good points.
     
    #219 Calminian, Sep 23, 2019
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  20. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    Furthermore, the author sums up the thought saying,

    Heb. 6:9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.​

    The author did not believe his readers would fall away, because he believed they were saved. The saved don't fall away.
     
    #220 Calminian, Sep 23, 2019
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