Featured If faith is predestined and cause by God, then answer me this.....

Dave G · Oct 19, 2019

@Calminian
As I see it, it boils down to this ...

Two men are before the Lord on Judgment Day.
He asks them, in essence...
"Why should I not cast you into Hell, where the penalty of sin and of the Law, says that I should?"

One man says, "Because I chose you".
The other says, "Because you chose me".

Which one would you say involves man's efforts at gaining favor with God, and which one constitutes God's efforts ( alone and independent of our efforts, totally of grace and mercy ) in saving men?
I leave that to you, to answer for yourself.

This is my last reply in this thread.

May God's blessings be upon you, sir.

Calminian · Oct 19, 2019

Dave Gilbert said: ↑

There is a difference between reaching out and taking something that is offered, and going about one's daily life and having it dropped into one's lap.
Click to expand...

I don't really see the difference, practically speaking. Even in that metaphor, the person must then grab the gift dropped in their lap. Unexpected and unsought, of course. Either way, I don't see the difference.

Dave Gilbert said: ↑

To me, that's the only way that it can truly be a gift, instead of being a reward.
Click to expand...

Do you have Scripture to back this up this concept of what a true gift is? IOWs, when Jacob had his servants bring over camels and gifts to Esau, is there any hint that Esau deserved partial credit for taking them? You say that this can't really be considered a gift (per your description). So where did you get this idea?

Reformed1689 · Oct 19, 2019

Calminian said: ↑

I don't really see the difference, practically speaking. Even in that metaphor, the person must then grab the gift dropped in their lap. Unexpected and unsought, of course. Either way, I don't see the difference.
Click to expand...

This is not true. I can pay your power bill and it doesn't matter if that is accepted or not.

emmett · Oct 21, 2019

Calminian said: ↑

.....why must it then be credited as righteousness?

Take a look at the following passages.

Gen. 15:6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

Rom. 4:2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.a 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Rom. 4:5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Rom. 4:6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

Rom. 4:11.....So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

Rom. 4:21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

This is a strong theme in Paul's writings. God credits faith as righteousness. This seems to preclude the idea that faith as any merit whatsoever. Thus, it seems pointless for God to predestine and cause something that is inadequate to save. Faith, in and of itself, does not acquire salvation. It cannot, according to Paul. It must be credited as righteousness by God. So, even if the believer makes the choice to believe, he cannot take any credit for his salvation, as belief, in and of itself, gains him nothing. He is still just as undeserving as the unbeliever, and God is not obligated to save believers or unbelievers. It's still 100% God's doing and 100% God's choice.
Click to expand...

What did the Philippian jailor have to do to be saved? He had to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. What did Paul say to Agrippa? He wished he had been successful in persuading Agrippa to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is not a work and it must be accomplished by sinners wishing to be saved.

HankD · Oct 21, 2019

Dave Gilbert said: ↑

Faith itself is not meritorious, and it cannot directly ( or even indirectly ) "cause" salvation, since it is a gift from God ( Ephesians 2:8 ) and not "hardwired" into us as men.

Agreed.

True, godly faith in Christ as Saviour and Deliverer is not a work of men, neither can it be, since it originated and came forth from Jesus Christ, it's Author and Finisher ( Hebrews 12:2 ).
It is exactly the opposite of keeping the Law, and cannot be possessed apart from it being given to someone.
Believers rest in His finished work on the cross for them, by that faith.

With that said, your thread question was this:

" If faith is predestined and cause by God, then answer me this....."

As I understand Scripture describing, faith is not predestined, but it is "caused" within a person of God's choosing and goes right along with the new birth.

Everything that accompanies the gift of eternal life, including faith, are gifts given to those whom the Lord, in His grace and mercy, have saved from His wrath and for Himself and made born again.
True faith is also a fruit of the Spirit ( Galatians 5:22-23 ), and cannot be present in someone who is not indwelt by Him.
Only the saved can have true faith, as it is said to be the faith of God's elect ( Titus 1:1 ).

These saved individuals are foreknown, predestinated, called, justified and glorified ( Romans 8:29-30 ) by God, who believe on His Son because it was given to them to do so ( Philippians 1:29 ).
Their faith is a spiritual benefit of a heart to heart relationship with their Saviour, Jesus Christ...
It is not, nor will it ever be, the means to attaining that relationship.

It is the evidence of the believer's salvation ( Hebrews 11:1 ), and was authored ( created ) and finished ( perfected ) by Him and Him alone.
Several passages describe it as the faith "of" Christ...that is, "by" or "from" Him...Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 2:20, Galatians 3:22 are but some of those passages.

So, even though it originated and came forth from Him to His sheep, faith itself is not what was predestined, but the individual was predestined, conformed to the image of God's dear Son, in the spiritual sense.
Vessels of mercy, afore ( before ) prepared unto glory ( Romans 9:22-24 ).

True faith "carries" the blood-bought believer through all of their trials and tribulations, and it never leaves them, just as His Spirit will never leave them ( Ephesians 1:13-14, Hebrews 13:5 ).
Those that do not have God-given and true faith, fail at some point during their time after "believing" the Gospel and fall away...back into the world and its ways.
That failure to endure those trials and tribulations, failing to hold on through thick and thin, is what proves that "tares" were not really saved to begin with.

Apologies for seeming to wander, but many who view "saving faith" as something other than works, tend not to see where it actually comes from:
Outside of sinful men and their desires, and directly from God.

All men do not have faith ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ), as it was ( and is ) delivered to the saints, and the saints alone ( Jude 1:3 ).
It isn't something that a person can "work up", neither is it something that all men will ever "have the chance" at gaining.

Case-in-point:

Just because a person hears God's word, does not guarantee that they will ever "hear" His words deep down in their hearts, since there is a "supernatural" component that must be present for His words to actually do their work...His Spirit.
Only someone that is "of God" will ever "hear" ( John 8:47 ), and only someone who has been given "ears to hear" ( Matthew 11:15 and many others ) will ever be able to hear and understand His words, spiritually;
One must have their understanding opened by God in order to do so ( Luke 24:45 ).
One must have their heart opened, so that they "attend" ( listen intently to, with the heart and mind ) the things spoken of in His word ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).
"Natural" men ( 1 Corinthians 2:14 ), who have not been born from above, will never be able or willing to receive that which they are incapable of receiving and discerning.

In other words, persistent resistance to His words is a mark of the natural man, not the child of God.
That is what marked the difference between Christ's disciples, and most of the Jews who followed Jesus around and eventually left Him in passages like John 6.

Back to faith:

Like salvation, faith is a gift... as are all of God's heavenly gifts, and apart from God, a man can have nothing ( John 3:27 ).
Only He can give someone true faith, and He will only give it to one of His elect.

This is my last reply in this thread.

I wish you well, and may God bless you, sir.
Click to expand...

It is impossible for the human heart which is both desperately wicked and deceitful above all things to produce love, joy peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance.

1 Corinthians 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

MB · Oct 21, 2019

davidtaylorjr said: ↑

This is not true. I can pay your power bill and it doesn't matter if that is accepted or not.
Click to expand...

Let me give you the account number that way you shouldn't have any problems. Just in case I forget thank you for paying my power bill.
My point If you make an offer someone if not everyone will accept it
MB

MB · Oct 21, 2019

HankD said: ↑

It is impossible for the human heart which is both desperately wicked and deceitful above all things to produce love, joy peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance.

1 Corinthians 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Click to expand...

It's also impossible for some who claim to be Christians to have joy peace, long suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance.
MB

HankD · Oct 21, 2019

MB said: ↑

It's also impossible for some who claim to be Christians to have joy peace, long suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance.
MB
Click to expand...

OK. but In the negative you point out, the word impossible doesn't apply IMO.
The fruit of the Spirit is there, it has to be in the heart of the child of God.
Perhaps overshadowed with sorrow (if that is what you mean) but there nonetheless.

HankD · Oct 21, 2019

The Eye-Popping Cost of Medicare for All

Back to the o/p - one has to be careful if one is depending on the government for oversight of one's Medicare health plan.
Uncle will not tell you if a better plan exists for you in any given year - you have oversight not them.

For 2020 I redid my Medicare Advantage plan, reduced my monthly premium from $129.00 to $82.00 - similar coverage.
In addition I now have a dental plan included.

They also failed to inform me that the drug Lyrica (not an opioid) went generic (Pregabalin) and went from $800.00 to $20.00 per month for a typical prescription. Lyrica/Pregablin was on my request list, it helps relieve neuropathy pain.

You still have time. LORD willing.

Revmitchell · Oct 21, 2019

Dave Gilbert said: ↑

@Calminian
As I see it, it boils down to this ...

Two men are before the Lord on Judgment Day.
He asks them, in essence...
"Why should I not cast you into Hell, where the penalty of sin and of the Law, says that I should?"

One man says, "Because I chose you".
The other says, "Because you chose me".

Which one would you say involves man's efforts at gaining favor with God, and which one constitutes God's efforts ( alone and independent of our efforts, totally of grace and mercy ) in saving men?
I leave that to you, to answer for yourself.

This is my last reply in this thread.

May God's blessings be upon you, sir.
Click to expand...

Both of those answers would be wrong. The reason we are justified and born again is because of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Nothing else.

MB · Oct 21, 2019

Dave Gilbert said: ↑

@Calminian
As I see it, it boils down to this ...

Two men are before the Lord on Judgment Day.
He asks them, in essence...
"Why should I not cast you into Hell, where the penalty of sin and of the Law, says that I should?"

One man says, "Because I chose you".
The other says, "Because you chose me".

Which one would you say involves man's efforts at gaining favor with God, and which one constitutes God's efforts ( alone and independent of our efforts, totally of grace and mercy ) in saving men?
I leave that to you, to answer for yourself.

This is my last reply in this thread.

May God's blessings be upon you, sir.
Click to expand...

The problem as I see it Christians will not be judged or asked such a stupid question on judgement day. If we are trully forgiven God doesn't remember our sins all He see's is the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
MB

InTheLight · Oct 21, 2019

Dave Gilbert said: ↑

@Calminian
As I see it, it boils down to this ...

Two men are before the Lord on Judgment Day.
He asks them, in essence...
"Why should I not cast you into Hell, where the penalty of sin and of the Law, says that I should?"

One man says, "Because I chose you".
The other says, "Because you chose me".
Click to expand...

So the "Other Guy" is mind reading the mind of God.

Calminian · Oct 21, 2019

emmett said: ↑

What did the Philippian jailor have to do to be saved? He had to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. What did Paul say to Agrippa? He wished he had been successful in persuading Agrippa to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is not a work and it must be accomplished by sinners wishing to be saved.
Click to expand...

No disagreement of course. Paul then gives us more insight into this process in Romans 4 when he reveals that God credits our faith as righteousness. All of this is intriguing insight into the mind of God, who reckons our faith, freely without obligation.

Reformed1689 · Oct 21, 2019

MB said: ↑

My point If you make an offer someone if not everyone will accept it
Click to expand...

And my point was it is not that type of gift.

Reformed1689 · Oct 21, 2019

Calminian said: ↑

No disagreement of course. Paul then gives us more insight into this process in Romans 4 when he reveals that God credits our faith as righteousness. All of this is intriguing insight into the mind of God, who reckons our faith, freely without obligation.
Click to expand...

Still hung up on this are you?

Calminian · Oct 21, 2019

Dave Gilbert said: ↑

@Calminian
As I see it, it boils down to this ...

Two men are before the Lord on Judgment Day.
He asks them, in essence...
"Why should I not cast you into Hell, where the penalty of sin and of the Law, says that I should?"

One man says, "Because I chose you".
The other says, "Because you chose me"....
Click to expand...

I actually don' know many that would answer in the former. I would say "because you chose me." God chose to save ungodly unworthy believers. Praise him.

Dave G · Oct 21, 2019

HankD said: ↑

The Eye-Popping Cost of Medicare for All

Back to the o/p - one has to be careful if one is depending on the government for oversight of one's Medicare health plan.
Uncle will not tell you if a better plan exists for you in any given year - you have oversight not them.

For 2020 I redid my Medicare Advantage plan, reduced my monthly premium from $129.00 to $82.00 - similar coverage.
In addition I now have a dental plan included.

They also failed to inform me that the drug Lyrica (not an opioid) went generic (Pregabalin) and went from $800.00 to $20.00 per month for a typical prescription. Lyrica/Pregablin was on my request list, it helps relieve neuropathy pain.

You still have time. LORD willing.
Click to expand...

I think you're in the wrong thread, Hank.

OldArmy · Oct 21, 2019

Dave Gilbert said: ↑

@Calminian
As I see it, it boils down to this ...

Two men are before the Lord on Judgment Day.
He asks them, in essence...
"Why should I not cast you into Hell, where the penalty of sin and of the Law, says that I should?"

One man says, "Because I chose you".
The other says, "Because you chose me".

Which one would you say involves man's efforts at gaining favor with God, and which one constitutes God's efforts ( alone and independent of our efforts, totally of grace and mercy ) in saving men?
I leave that to you, to answer for yourself.

This is my last reply in this thread.

May God's blessings be upon you, sir.
Click to expand...

What if one said "Because Yeshua gave his life for those who believe, that their sins will be forgiven."?

Dave G · Oct 21, 2019

OldArmy said: ↑

What if one said "Because Yeshua gave his life for those who believe in His name they will have their sins forgiven."
Click to expand...

He did give His life for those who believe ( Matthew 1:21, John 10:11 ), and their sins are already forgiven ( Colossians 2:13-14 ).

That all happened at the cross.

HankD · Oct 21, 2019

Dave Gilbert said: ↑

I think you're in the wrong thread, Hank.
Click to expand...

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