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Featured What Was God Thinking?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Aaron, Nov 29, 2019.

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  1. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    God allowed / commanded Satan to move David.
    God allowed / commanded an evil spirit to entice Ahab.
    Satan.
    Who allowed / commanded Satan to sift Peter as wheat? ;)
    Satan.
    Who allowed / commanded Satan to buffet Paul?:Sneaky
    Satan.
    Who allowed / commanded Satan to afflict Job?
    " And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord." ( Job 1:12 ).
    " Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil." ( Matthew 4:1 ).
     
    #81 Dave G, Dec 2, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
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  2. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    If I may offer some advice, ITL?

    Simply believe what the Bible says, instead of trying to reason through it ( Proverbs 3:5-7 ).
    Subject your understanding to it, instead of subjecting it to your understanding.:)
     
    #82 Dave G, Dec 2, 2019
  3. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Unknowable, and to some extent ... irrelevant.

    Omniscient ... means that nothing happens that God does not know will happen, thus there can be no events that God has not planned for.

    Omnipotent ... means that nothing happens that God does not either allow to happen or actively cause to happen. Where scripture is silent on distinguishing God’s active will (the things God causes) from his passive will (the things God allows to happen), all speculation is just a guess. In either case, the buck starts and stops with God for either causing or allowing everything that happens.

    Not Perfect ... Since God is perfect, but man is not (and never was), it is hardly a stretch for God to plan on imperfect men to eventually act imperfectly. Thus irrespective of whether the specific details of the FALL were actively planned and caused by God or not, the inevitability that Man would eventually Fall was a metaphysical certainly. Imperfect human beings are incapable of living perfect lives, so the fall was certain to happen. Whether God “caused” it or simply “allowed” it is an inconsequential detail.

    Personally, I lean towards God being the CAUSE of everything ... Sovereignty of God over Free Will of man ... but that is just my personal opinion.
     
    #83 atpollard, Dec 2, 2019
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  4. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I have not said anything about the redemption of angels. I do not believe they are redeemed.

    The redemption of man created of the flesh and given a spiritual law is what destroys the power of the devil and also the devil himself.

    Man was created in the manner he was created in order for the Son of God to be manifested as the Son of Man to destroy the devil and his works, because of his sin from the beginning.

    That is how I understand what has and is transpiring.
     
    #84 percho, Dec 2, 2019
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  5. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    It sounded like you were saying Creation was a response to the works of the Devil, to destroy his works done prior to Creation...and, of course, to destroy his works in the world as well, but not primarily.
     
    #85 Aaron, Dec 3, 2019
  6. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Marty has bailed. I half way expected him (or ITL) to ask how the the explanation in the video was somewhat paganistic.

    Did anyone else watch it? Did anyone else think, Jim Henson's 'The Dark Crystal?'
     
    #86 Aaron, Dec 3, 2019
  7. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Here's the video summed up:

    Once upon a time, Heaven and Earth were essentially the same place. "Garden of Eden" is just a picture. It wasn't really a garden. It was an unimaginable intersection of different dimensions where God and men worked together to build their dwelling.

    Then men decided they didn't like God's way of building this interdimensional dwelling place, we'll call it a Garden, and set about to do things their way. This resulted in sin which caused the expulsion of Heaven from Earth, except in temples, which were kind of portals into God's presence opened by animal sacrifice (because animal sacrifices could absorb local sin and allow Heaven in.)

    Then Christ came and was sacrificed, but His sacrifice can multiply and absorb sin at large all over the world making all kinds of portals into God's presence.

    One Day, Heaven and Earth will be one again just like in the beginning, but we'll use a different picture. We'll call it a city this time instead of a Garden, but there really is no difference.

    This is Eastern mysticism, not Christianity.
     
    #87 Aaron, Dec 3, 2019
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  8. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I did.

    To me, it left out quite a bit, and was in error in various parts.
    I never saw the "Dark Crystal", so wouldn't know.

    But I think that the video was very simplified and I don't think it did the actual word of God any justice, nor was it very well represented or even presented from an accurate understanding of it.
    From my perspective, it was even worse than watching some of the 1950's and 60's biblical movies, and how they either left out large parts, or went as far as oversimplifying or outright changing some things.

    In addition, I don't know if I'd use the term "Eastern Mysticism", but I think that they are not very far from it in their presentation.
    The terms, "metaphysical" combined with "astral plane" and "material plane" are what came to mind almost immediately...

    But the more I think about it, the more I agree with you.;)
     
    #88 Dave G, Dec 3, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019
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  9. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    I went to Sedona, Arizona last year. They had all these new age "portal" tours for people to go on astral trips. I was thankful to see a Bible Church was also on main street. It was such a stark reminder that God is found in Christ Jesus, not mystical experiences.
    I also recognized where "Dr Strange" got the whole "portal" concept in the Marvel movie.
    Thanks for the summaries on this video. I have met Christians from Columbia and Brazil who have shared that indigenous Roman Catholics in the Amazon often mix their pagan animism with Romanism in an occult practice where demonic spirits are called upon for mystical experiences. One asked me to pray for his mother who was caught in this twisted religion.
     
    #89 Particular, Dec 3, 2019
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  10. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    It's an entirely different narrative, but it does illuminate @MartyF 's unbiblical thinking.

    Now knowing that @MartyF doesn't believe in a literal garden, but the intersection of "God's space" and "man's space," he is stating that man was wholly different in structure as well. Procreation would occur if there were no Fall, and probably did in man's cooperation with God in building their dwelling place, but that procreation did not (or would not) be carried out as we see it carried out in nature. It would not include babies.

    Below @MartyF clearly says he believed procreation was occurring before the fall in some sort of transcendental manner. :Alien

    So, no babies, and something altogether different than revealed in Scripture or nature.

    Dude, it's The Dark Crystal. Once upon a time there was balance in the universe, we'll call it a Garden—er, I mean, a gem. Then the gem cracked and a noble race of beings were split into two distinct races, the evil Skeksis and the mystical urRu.

    At the end of a thousand years, an astronomical event coupled with a ritual involving the crystal to grant immortality to the partakers would occur. At just the right time, a child of another race inserted the broken piece into the crystal and the Skeksis and urRu were combined into the noble race of urSkeks and balance was restored.

    Question: how did the Skeksis and urRu make babies?
    @MartyF : not sure, but not in the same way as the urSkeks.
     
    #90 Aaron, Dec 4, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
  11. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Yes.

    The cross did not have to happen had Adam not sinned. There was a future in which Adam and Eve don't sin and that was God's ideal future. That's what he wanted. But he didn't get his will because of our sinful will. Nevertheless, that did not take him by surprise because Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world (Acts 15:18). Therefore the Lamb of God was foreordained before the foundation of the world (1Pe.1:20) to die on the tree to redeem us sinners.
    And if that presentation offends one's sophisticated senses, it's because one has bought into a philosophical view of God rather than a scriptural one.
     
    #91 George Antonios, Dec 4, 2019
  12. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Isaiah 14:27 "For the LORD of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?

    Adam and Eve did not thwart God's plan for mankind. As finite creatures they lacked the ability to do so. Even a flawed man like Job confessed as much:

    Job 42:2 "I know that You can do all things, And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
     
    #92 Reformed, Dec 4, 2019
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  13. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    A) Those verses have nothing to do with the matter at hand. They are relative to anything God has purposed to accomplish. He did not purpose to make Adam and Eve sin. That's blasphemous.
    B) God will get what he desired in the end, out in Revelation 22, but the path there was not his ideal way. We made it longer and harder by our stubborn will. (Any parent can relate).
    C) Every person that chooses to reject Christ and go to hell, eternally and irrevocably frustrates the will of God for them (1Timothy 2:4).

    This is Bible. Not human philosophy.
     
    #93 George Antonios, Dec 4, 2019
  14. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    It is you...making human choice equal to or greater than God's Sovereign authority.
     
    #94 Particular, Dec 4, 2019
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  15. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    You answered for me. Thank you.
     
    #95 Reformed, Dec 4, 2019
  16. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Just plain ignorant. You must not be able to read and comprehend what this thread is about.
    MB
     
    #96 MB, Dec 4, 2019
  17. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    I read and comprehend just fine.
     
    #97 Particular, Dec 4, 2019
  18. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Here you use a verse about Assyria that has nothing to do with the OP

    Here you present a verse that isn't translated correctly.
    KJV. Job 42:2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
    What you posted Must be a mistake or a Calvinist Bible.

    MB
     
    #98 MB, Dec 4, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
  19. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Then why your ignorant reply?
    MB
     
    #99 MB, Dec 4, 2019
  20. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps it is you who doesn't understand my reply.
     
    #100 Particular, Dec 4, 2019
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