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Wayne Grudem: Trump Should Not Be Removed from Office: A Response to Mark Galli and Christianity Tod

Discussion in 'News & Current Events' started by Revmitchell, Dec 30, 2019.

  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Writing as an evangelical Christian who has taught ethics as a professor at the college and graduate school level for 42 years, and as the author of a major textbook on Christian ethics and another widely-used book on the relationship between politics and the Bible, I wish to respectfully differ with Mark Galli’s editorial, “Trump Should Be Removed from Office” (Christianity Today, December 19, 2019). This is in keeping with Galli’s statement that the approach of CT is to “allow Christians with different political convictions to make their arguments in the public square.” .....

    (1) Did Trump violate the Constitution?

    Galli fails to say exactly what part of the Constitution he thinks that Trump violated. He claims that Trump tried to “coerce a foreign leader,” referring to a phone call from Trump to President Zelenskyy of Ukraine on July 25, 2019. .....

    (2) Was Trump’s phone call “profoundly immoral”?

    Galli also fails to show how Trump’s conversation with the president of Ukraine was “profoundly immoral.” It is not immoral to investigate possible corruption -- it’s what governments should do.......

    (3) What about Trump’s association with convicted criminals?

    Another reason to remove Trump from office, according to Galli, is that he hired and fired people who later became “convicted criminals.” This is a new argument. Previously, I was under the impression that our country holds a person responsible for his or her own wrongdoing, but not for the wrongdoing of others (unless the supervisor knew about the wrongdoing and failed to do anything about it). However, now Galli is implying that Trump should be held accountable – and removed from office! – for the wrongdoing of people who worked for him. This is the unjust principle of “guilt by association.” I’m glad that God did not hold Jesus to that same standard (remember Judas, who served as treasurer for the 12 disciples and Jesus; see John 12:6; 13:29). In the Old Testament Scriptures, Ezekiel says this: “The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself” (Ezekiel 18:20).......

    (4) Immoral actions before Trump became president

    Galli also wants to remove Trump from office because he has admitted to “immoral actions in business and his relationship with women.” At this point Galli must be referring to actions done before Trump was elected president, because he has not admitted to any immoral actions while in office. In addition, I am not aware of Trump admitting to any immoral actions in business, so Galli’s accusations seem overly broad.

    But regarding “immoral actions . . . with women,” Galli is correct. He is apparently referring to the Access Hollywood tape released October 7, 2016 (the tape contained a recording of lewd comments made by Trump in 2005 about kissing and groping women). Trump released a videotaped statement the following day saying, “I’ve never said I’m a perfect person, nor pretended to be someone that I’m not. I’ve said and done things I regret, and the words released today on this more than a decade-old video are one of them. Anyone who knows me knows these words don’t reflect who I am. I said it, I was wrong, and I apologize . . . . I pledge to be a better man tomorrow and will never, ever let you down.” So on what basis does Galli say that Trump “remains proud” of these things?

    (5) Do Trump’s tweets show that he is immoral?

    But what about Trump’s Twitter feed? Galli says it contains “a habitual string of mischaracterizations, lies, and slanders,” and is “a near-perfect example of a human being who is morally lost and confused.” But is this true?

    Before people condemn Trump’s tweets by merely reading about them in a hostile press, they should read them for themselves. Anyone can do this at Twitter.com. I just read through every one of Trump’s tweets from the entire past week (December 19-25), to see if Galli is correct in his accusation. ....

    .......My question for Mr. Galli is this: how can you say that such tweets are “a near-perfect example of a human being who is morally lost and confused”? The expression “near-perfect example” suggests that something like 90% or 95% of his tweets reflect morally evil choices. But, after reading these tweets, it seems to me that Galli has made a false accusation. ......

    (6) Does Trump have a “grossly immoral character”?

    Galli’s final reason for removing Trump from office is that “none of the president’s positives can balance the moral and political danger we face under a leader of such grossly immoral character.”

    It is a deeply serious matter to accuse someone of having a “grossly immoral character,” for if the accusation is believed, it destroys a person’s reputation for lifetime, and a good reputation is more valuable than untold riches. “A good name is to be chosen rather than great riches, and favor is better than silver or gold” (Proverbs 22:1). Therefore, before we make an accusation like this, it is important that we base it on an abundance of clear and compelling evidence, for false accusation inflicts substantial harm on another person. God commands, “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor” (Exod. 20:16), and the Mosaic law code imposed strict penalties on anyone who made a false accusation (see Deuteronomy 19:18-19; compare Proverbs 6:19).

    Trump Should Not Be Removed from Office: A Response to Mark Galli and Christianity Today
     
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  2. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    Grudem nailed that one.
     
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  3. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I would encourage everyone to not just read what I have posted but read the entire article.
     
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  4. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    They are not trying to remove him. The objective is to unnerve him enough to stroke him out.
     
  5. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    I would think Grudem would have his hands full with rewriting the Bible to prop up complementarianism.
     
    #5 rsr, Dec 30, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2019
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  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    You would? Really? That is what you would think? Thanks for the helpful insight.
     
  7. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    You are more than welcome.
     
  8. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    [​IMG]
     
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  9. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    I don't reckon that would take much time at all, since it was already in there in the first place.
     
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  10. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    I think that I agree with you but I would be grateful for more detail about what he is doing about complementarianism.
     
  11. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    The same with your reply. I would be grateful for more details. As you know, I have been studying YEC for the last several million years and I am not up to speed on some of these other issues.
     
  12. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    He ended well:
    ...
    And the future of the nation also matters. It matters a lot, not only for ourselves, our children, and our grandchildren, but also for the rest of the world, for whom a strong United States is the primary bulwark against tyranny and oppression. And it matters for the future of the church, for which freedom of religion remains a precious benefit not shared today by Christians in numerous other countries.

    If evangelicals fail to support Donald Trump after he has delivered on so many issues important to Christian values, many people will conclude that we really do not care about conservative judges, the protection of the unborn, the protection of gender distinctions, religious freedom, conscience protections for Christians in the workplace, a strong enough military to protect us against threats from China, North Korea, Russia, and Iran, jobs, wages, economic opportunities for minorities, a secure border, Israel, affordable energy (especially for the poor), energy independence, the protection of property rights, expanding parental choice for schools, revitalizing NATO, protecting freedom of speech on campuses, and many other things. Galli dismisses these concerns with the label “political expediency,” but all of these issues affect people’s ordinary lives. These issues really do matter.

    On issue after issue, President Trump is changing the direction of the country for the better. When I weigh these results against his sometimes imprecise and coarse speech, there is no comparison.
    ...​
     
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  13. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    ...
    What is the alternative?


    What is the alternative to President Trump? The current Democratic candidates are proposing much higher taxes, significantly more regulations, no border wall, reduced defense spending, protecting abortion rights up to the very moment of birth, compelling Christian businesses and parachurch organizations to affirm same-sex marriage and approval of transgender sexual identity, imposing massive restrictions on coal and oil, a wealth tax, Medicare for All (which brings us government-run healthcare), and a general movement toward a kind of socialism in which more and more businesses and industries are placed under government control. The common theme running through these proposals is taking away more and more of our freedoms, with the government controlling more and more details of our lives.

    I prefer freedom. I agree with our Declaration of Independence that liberty is an “unalienable right” that has been bestowed on us by our Creator. I’ll vote again for Trump.
     
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  14. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Mike Bloomberg
     
  15. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    LOL :Roflmao and "Pelosi prayers!" May God deliver us from both. :Wink
     
  16. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    We will see :Biggrin
     
  17. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    Well, it wouldn't be the first time, but seems we may be on different wavelengths regarding the actual topic. There ain't no "We will see" here. It's already here. Bloomberg is a candidate. So show us.

    Other than being filthy rich and controlling a significant amount of media, the latter being a serious problem in and of itself, just how different do you imagine Bloomberg really is from Grudem's list representing the alternatives from the article that would make him palatable for a Christian voter?

    "The current Democratic candidates are proposing much higher taxes, significantly more regulations, no border wall, reduced defense spending, protecting abortion rights up to the very moment of birth, compelling Christian businesses and parachurch organizations to affirm same-sex marriage and approval of transgender sexual identity, imposing massive restrictions on coal and oil, a wealth tax, Medicare for All (which brings us government-run healthcare), and a general movement toward a kind of socialism in which more and more businesses and industries are placed under government control. The common theme running through these proposals is taking away more and more of our freedoms, with the government controlling more and more details of our lives."
     
  18. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    I see being 23 trillion in debt as a problem. What does Trump plan to do about it?
     
  19. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    That completely ignored the question, which is, What is sufficiently attractive about Bloomberg? He just looks like another anti-Trump Dem. Do you imagine he is going to pay off the debt with his own money?
     
  20. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps to you he looks like another anti trump dem which he is but he is much more than that. Pay attention to him and you will learn.
     
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