1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Francis Chan, leaning Romanist?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by rlvaughn, Jan 15, 2020.

  1. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I have not seen this discussed on the Baptist Board. If it has been I missed it and apologize. So far as I know Francis Chan is not a Baptist, but I think he is likely influential in some Baptist circles. I am posting this here because I am interested in the Baptist take and Baptist discussion about what Chan said, rather than all the denominationalists who might respond if I open the topic in that area of the BB.

    Francis Chan has made comments that make me think he is leaning toward Roman Catholicism. Am I overreacting? What is your take?
    • I didn’t know that for the first 1,500 years of church history everyone saw it [the Eucharist/Lord’s supper] as the literal body and blood of Christ. And it wasn’t till 500 years ago someone popularized a thought that it’s just a symbol and nothing more. I didn’t know that!
    • ...for the first time, someone put a pulpit in the front of the gathering, because, before that, it was always the body and blood of Christ that was central to the gathering.
    • I say that because the Church is more divided than at any time in history...And for a thousand years there was just one church. We are so used to growing up at a time when there are literally over 30,000 denominations.
    Listen to the whole clip; comments found HERE.
     
  2. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2019
    Messages:
    2,331
    Likes Received:
    500
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You may be jumping to "Romanist" too fast. The EOC, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Episcopalians and others believe in real presence.
    Real presence does not always translate to the Roman view of Transubstantiation. Christ can be really present in the wine and wafer without the wine and wafer becoming the literal flesh and blood of Jesus.
    This issue is something that all believers should wrestle with. It doesn't surprise me that Francis Chan is wrestling with this. It does surprise me it has taken this long.
     
  3. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    4,960
    Likes Received:
    1,694
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I am surprised that Francis Chan is a newcomer to church history. Well, maybe I am not surprised. He seems to be enthralled with pre-Reformation Christianity. One of the foundational truths that came out of the Reformation is not that the Lord's Supper is the focal point of Christian worship, but the supremacy of the Word of God. Except for a few burning wicks, for nearly one thousand years after the fall of the Western Empire, there was a famine for the Word of God. If Chan winds up swimming the Tiber it will be because he has abandoned the authority of the Word.
     
  4. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2019
    Messages:
    2,331
    Likes Received:
    500
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No doubt.
    With the way that Chan has vacillated on church function it doesn't surprise me he is jumping all over regarding real presence in communion.
    Hopefully he is studying scripture itself on the subject. Also, he/we need to consider if the last supper was a sedir meal or not. If it was a sedir then what Jesus is saying in the supper has a cultural context that helps us understand what he is saying.
    Chan is a person I read with a bit of a grain of salt as he tends to like extremes.
     
  5. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,788
    Likes Received:
    698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What sort of background does he have anyway? What seminary did he attend?
     
    #5 Jerome, Jan 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  6. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Master's University and Master's Seminary, according to Wikipedia. (There is no citation for that, however.)
     
  7. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,788
    Likes Received:
    698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Ah, that makes sense.
     
  8. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes, I consider that I could be. I do understand that there are real presence views that are not transubstantiation. However, it does seem like he is setting this in a Catholic context, saying there was just one church and communion doctrine for 1500 years, and using a common Catholic polemic against Protestantism -- that there are 30,000 denominations (and they mean to blame the Reformation with this).
    His statement that the pulpit has replaced the body and blood of Christ seems to correspond with the oft-repeated Catholic statement that the authority of the Bible has replaced the authority of the Church. I would also assert that he is not enthralled enough with pre-Reformation Christianity. By that I mean that he has missed a substantial part of church history if he thinks that for 1,500 years everyone believed that the bread and wine was the literal body and blood of Christ. Certainly Catholics can give us quotes that seem to say that. Perhaps some of the writers did mean that (I think early on they did not), but Catholics also misrepresent John 6:54 to make it say that as well. On the other hand, they fail to mention statements where writers use terms like "figure" and "symbol" to refer to the elements -- long long before 500 years ago.
    Hopefully. However, much of what he says seems to be grounded more in his newfound understanding of church history.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    5,821
    Likes Received:
    798
    Yeah, but I know they're very wary of him, now. He seems to be extremely inclusive with not only Catholicism, but also the New Apostolic Reformation (a cult).



    I see nothing but red flags with Francis Chan, especially after defending Mike Bickle (IHOP) and speaking at his conferences.

    I also know he's very defensive of Roman Catholics.
    Francis Chan Declines to Share the Gospel With Catholic, Says Holy Spirit Doesn’t Want Him To

    He also apologized to Catholics at his Church after a guest speaker preached against Catholicism, and refused to allow the speaker to take questions afterward.



    I had to research all this because I was at a Church for a short time that promoted him constantly. Bottom line, he's bad news. He's not your typical Master's grad. Don't be fooled by the degree.
     
    #9 Calminian, Jan 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
    • Informative Informative x 2
  10. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    52,013
    Likes Received:
    3,649
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So he is wrong because he doesnt know his bible. The use of a pulpit can be found in the old testament. There was constant division and issues in the 1st century church and he would know that if he ever read any of Pauls epistles
     
  11. just-want-peace

    just-want-peace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2002
    Messages:
    7,727
    Likes Received:
    873
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Until reading this thread I had never given much thought to the "Lord's Supper" being miraculously transformed into the actual body & blood of Christ.
    BUT, seems to me that this concept is supporting cannibalism & is a direct disobedience to God's command to "--not drink the blood --" in the OT.
    I guess this has never been a problem for me simply because I don't believe it.:rolleyes:
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    he must have forgotten that we are commanded to give forth the real Gospel. and not just accept the false one of Rome!
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    He seems to see Unity as trumping right doctrines, and he seems to feel that its just the Roman view on the sacraments, or the Baptist view, but there is many positions between strictly physical presence and strictly symbolic!
     
  14. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    5,821
    Likes Received:
    798
    His signature book is Crazy Love, and ironically, he does actually have a crazy view on love. Unity before Truth
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    How about Unity based upon truth?
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  16. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,788
    Likes Received:
    698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Flashback: The Gospel Coalition council members Mark Driscoll and Joshua Harris interviewing John MacAthur protégé Francis Chan:

     
  17. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    38
    Faith:
    Baptist
    We are living at a time when Protestants and traditional Catholics, while rightly disagreeing on many things, need to get along because of things like Islam and secularism threatening everything that Christian civilization stands for.

    John Calvin and Martin Luther, for example, never would have imagined that abortion on demand would be the norm in society.

    When Francis Chan says that Protestants need to get back to a more patristic understanding of the Eucharist, does that make him closer to Catholicism or closer to what Luther and Calvin taught?

    The Eucharist is Making Francis Chan More Reformed, Not Less

    Luther and Calvin's understanding of Christ's real presence in the Eucharist is not the same as Catholic transubstantiation, but they didn't see it as just a symbol either.

    What do you think of Francis Chan's claims to have performed healings in Myanmar?

    When the Gospel is first preached in places where it's never been heard before, do real miracles still happen?
     
    #17 Humble Disciple, Jul 10, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2021
  18. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    38
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This is from the 1689 London Baptist Confession:

    Baptists today who say that the Lord's Supper is just a wafer and grape juice and nothing else might not know their Baptist history very well.

    Luther and Calvin's understanding of Christ's real presence in the Eucharist, as well as that of early Baptists, is not the same as Catholic transubstantiation, but they didn't see it as just a symbol either.
     
    #18 Humble Disciple, Jul 11, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2021
  19. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    38
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The reason why 1 Corinthians 11:27 and the 1689 London Baptist Confession both warn against partaking of the bread and cup unworthily is because they saw it as more than just a symbol. This does not mean, however, that Catholic transubstantiation is true:

     
  20. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I have not thought any more about Francis Chan for about a year and a half. When Chan speaks of
    one view of the Eucharist for the first 1,500 years of church history (whether right or wrong), he is talking about Catholicism, not Luther and Calvin. And when he claims that for 1000 years there was just one church (whether right or wrong), he means Catholicism, not Lutherans and Calvinists.

    As far as any purported healings by Chan in Myanmar, I do not know anything about that.
     
Loading...