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To Be or Not To Be: That is the question of James 2:5

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Reformed1689, Dec 26, 2019.

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  1. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Nobody has argued that.
     
    #41 Reformed1689, Jan 16, 2020
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Several translations add "to be" to the text, which reverses the actual meaning. Such corruption cannot be justified from grammar. OTOH, since 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says people are chosen for salvation through or on the basis of faith in the truth, the corrupted renderings of these two verses demonstrates conditional election based on God crediting our faith.
     
    #42 Van, Jan 16, 2020
  3. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    How so? How do you know "yet" doesn't reverse the meaning?

    Actually it is justified from the grammar as has already been shown to you and the majority of translators agree. What gives you higher credentials than them to say it is wrong?

    That's not what that verse says. That's what Van says by adding in "or on the basis of" which is not found in the text.
     
    #43 Reformed1689, Jan 16, 2020
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Quote without comment
     
    #44 Van, Jan 16, 2020
  5. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    The post you had wasn't formatted correctly so I have no idea what you were trying to say. Can you reformat and post again?
     
    #45 Reformed1689, Jan 16, 2020
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    See the non stop posts trying to hide corruption of the text? People are chosen through faith. Faith provides our access to the grace in which we stand. We are saved by grace through faith. Verse after verse folks, whereas the opposite view has no support from scripture.
     
    #46 Van, Jan 16, 2020
  7. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Ah yes, and here is the disconnect. No Calvinist argues that we are not saved by faith or through faith as that is the agent God has decided to use. However, that is not reason that we are elected.
     
    #47 Reformed1689, Jan 16, 2020
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God the Father chose us to be saved in Christ before and apart from faith in Christ!
     
    #48 Yeshua1, Jan 16, 2020
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    yes, as we as Calvinists and our non cal brethren both agree how are saved, but not on the basis of the salvation, as to the what caused our election!
     
    #49 Yeshua1, Jan 16, 2020
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Denial of 2 Thessalonians 2:13
     
    #50 Van, Jan 16, 2020
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Second denial of 2 Thessalonians 2:13
     
    #51 Van, Jan 16, 2020
  12. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    #52 Reformed1689, Jan 16, 2020
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Right, you "deny" God chose for salvation through faith in the truth. Conditional Individual Election is biblical, Unconditional Individual Election for salvation is unbiblical. Saying taint so does not alter the verse.
     
    #53 Van, Jan 16, 2020
  14. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Except there is nowhere in Scripture that says that Van, including 2 Thes. 2:13. You add that in.
     
    #54 Reformed1689, Jan 16, 2020
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    But we ought to thank God always for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

    It is a lock folks, so false doctrine must be defended by denying verse after verse.
     
    #55 Van, Jan 16, 2020
  16. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Let me fix your problem by parsing out phrases:

    But we ought to thank God always for you, Brothers and sisters / loved by the Lord / because God chose your form the beginning / for salvation / through sanctification / by the spirit / and faith in the truth.

    God chose you to be saved. How was he going to do it? Through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

    It in no way says God chose you forsalvation because of sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. That literally makes no sense at all.
     
    #56 Reformed1689, Jan 16, 2020
  17. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, you screaming no doesn't change the verse.
     
    #57 Reformed1689, Jan 16, 2020
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Once again, the verse is rewritten by altering the grammar of the text, salvation (noun) is said to be a verb.
    This corruption is for the purpose of breaking the linkage between the verb "chose" and the object "through faith in the truth."

    It is a lock folks, so false doctrine must be defended by denying verse after verse.
     
    #58 Van, Jan 16, 2020
  19. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Now Van I'm calling out your deception here. I did not alter a noun to be a verb. Read where I actually broke up the phrases you will see I did no such thing. What you said was a misread of what I wrote, or a flat out lie at worst. I'll choose to believe you did not understand what I wrote.

    The object of chose is the noun salvation.
     
    #59 Reformed1689, Jan 16, 2020
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Here the argument is that "to be" is needed because:
    1) Those chosen were poor. A better translation is "poor to the world" or poor according to the world.
    2) How could those chosen be heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God before they were chosen? They became "heirs" when God credited their faith (including devotion) as righteousness.
    3) The view emphatically denies anyone was saved before they were chosen and transferred into Christ. Being an "heir" to the promised kingdom because they "loved God" (as determined by God) does not indicate they had been saved yet. Only when a person is transferred into Christ are they saved - made alive, made righteous, their sin burden removed by the washing of regeneration and the circumcision of Christ.
     
    #60 Van, Jan 17, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2020
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